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#1 lurbz

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:52 PM

So Gen Pok had the regular, LHE, and MTT challenge threads, I'm bringing a SNG grinding thread here.I'll be posting a lot in here hopefully, main things to go over:Hands (obv)ICM spotsVolume and comfort zones (for those new to multitabling)ChallengesBubble playExploitation of "regs"I'll answer what I know, I know there's a few others who can contribute a bit, but whether or not they will show up is yet to be determined.I'll show up with my first challenge: 1.5k games played with 1k min profit in January.EDIT: Tracking this here:Games Played: 124Profit: $164ROI: 9%VPPs Earned: 533.99VPP Bonus $: $0
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#2 RakeMyBlind

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:08 PM

View Postlurbz, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 6:52 PM, said:

So Gen Pok had the regular, LHE, and MTT challenge threads, I'm bringing a SNG grinding thread here.I'll be posting a lot in here hopefully, main things to go over:Hands (obv)ICM spotsVolume and comfort zones (for those new to multitabling)ChallengesBubble playExploitation of "regs"I'll answer what I know, I know there's a few others who can contribute a bit, but whether or not they will show up is yet to be determined.I'll show up with my first challenge: 1.5k games played with 1k min profit in January.
What is ICM?Also, this sounds like a cool idea and I plan on posting hands in here since I'm about to start grinding sng's to buid a bankroll. I just cashed some freeroll's and have ~30 in my account now. Which sng's should I be playing? I thought about the $1.10 double or nothing's or the single table 9-man $1.20's. Anybody have any better ideas?

#3 lurbz

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 04:20 PM

View PostRakeMyBlind, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 4:08 PM, said:

What is ICM?Also, this sounds like a cool idea and I plan on posting hands in here since I'm about to start grinding sng's to buid a bankroll. I just cashed some freeroll's and have ~30 in my account now. Which sng's should I be playing? I thought about the $1.10 double or nothing's or the single table 9-man $1.20's. Anybody have any better ideas?
ICM = Independent Chip Model. Look it up for a further explanation, but essentially what it does is assign each stack an equity amount based off players remaining and the prize payout structure. It's one of the main things used in SNGs in order to determine push/fold ranges and call ranges, specifically in bubble play.I'm still raw with most of my ICM things. SNGWizard is a very helpful tool.In response to your question, $1.10 DoN SNGs are going to be difficult to beat the rake in, as are $1.20s. I may go down to the $0.25 45 and 90 mans and play those, there's no rake to be paid and I would imagine them to be super soft. You'll probably be able to beat the DoNs enough to get started but the rake is just awful. If you can get to around $50, I'd say start going at the $3.25 6 max SNGs or $1.10 45 mans, and then if you drop back to $30 going back to DoNs until you're able to get back and have success in the 6 max/45 mans. My main suggestion would be the 45 mans but I don't know your play well enough to give you a definitive answer.
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#4 rrumsey

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:01 PM

$1 dollar sng are kind of ass crazy imo, if you are lucky enough for the spewy insane villain to spew off there stack in the first few orbits your gold, if not you may just get donk bet to death every time you wanna cbet. $1 dollars play worst then the high stakes fake chip games imo. Just aviod them and play $2 SNG's or something, hard to win all the time when villains force so much variance from staking off so easy and early in hands.
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#5 HighwayStar

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:06 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Wednesday, December 30th, 2009, 1:01 AM, said:

$1 dollar sng are kind of ass crazy imo, if you are lucky enough for the spewy insane villain to spew off there stack in the first few orbits your gold, if not you may just get donk bet to death every time you wanna cbet. $1 dollars play worst then the high stakes fake chip games imo. Just aviod them and play $2 SNG's or something, hard to win all the time when villains force so much variance from staking off so easy and early in hands.
donk bets occur at all levels. Learn to adapt.
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#6 rrumsey

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:58 PM

View PostHighwayStar, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 6:06 PM, said:

donk bets occur at all levels. Learn to adapt.
no i mean like ass crazy vp's of 75-80 and Af of like 90-100% just nothing you can do besides make hands against them. donk bets 90-100% the time. it is not the move that is the problem, the insane frequency of weird plays makes everythingt so polarized, plus without fail every single $1 tourny i have played you have MR I OPEN SHOVE EVER SINGLE HAND. it becomes gambling. i hate that. people treat $1 dollar like it is play chips or worst
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#7 lurbz

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:58 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 5:01 PM, said:

$1 dollar sng are kind of ass crazy imo, if you are lucky enough for the spewy insane villain to spew off there stack in the first few orbits your gold, if not you may just get donk bet to death every time you wanna cbet. $1 dollars play worst then the high stakes fake chip games imo. Just aviod them and play $2 SNG's or something, hard to win all the time when villains force so much variance from staking off so easy and early in hands.
6.50s are no betterlook in gen po i had a guy get it in with Q6 after i 4bet him prevariance is going to occur but it all comes down to mid to late gameplay regardless.
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#8 lurbz

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:01 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 5:58 PM, said:

no i mean like ass crazy vp's of 75-80 and Af of like 90-100% just nothing you can do besides make hands against them. donk bets 90-100% the time. it is not the move that is the problem, the insane frequency of weird plays makes everythingt so polarized, plus without fail every single $1 tourny i have played you have MR I OPEN SHOVE EVER SINGLE HAND. it becomes gambling. i hate that. people treat $1 dollar like it is play chips or worst
This thread is about game improvement, not whining because you haven't figured out how to beat a game such as the one you describe. Please keep it as such.
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#9 Chet Chetterson

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:27 PM

I will try and add to this forum when I play SnG's although with school I won't be grinding as much as others will be.
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#10 outsider13

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:06 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 7:58 PM, said:

no i mean like ass crazy vp's of 75-80 and Af of like 90-100% just nothing you can do besides make hands against them. donk bets 90-100% the time. it is not the move that is the problem, the insane frequency of weird plays makes everythingt so polarized, plus without fail every single $1 tourny i have played you have MR I OPEN SHOVE EVER SINGLE HAND. it becomes gambling. i hate that. people treat $1 dollar like it is play chips or worst
These are the types of games you want to play! Seriously. If you stick to your game, there is no reason why you shouldn't rape them. I'd rather play clueless people than a bunch of sng grinders.

#11 RakeMyBlind

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:35 PM

View Postlurbz, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 8:20 PM, said:

ICM = Independent Chip Model. Look it up for a further explanation, but essentially what it does is assign each stack an equity amount based off players remaining and the prize payout structure. It's one of the main things used in SNGs in order to determine push/fold ranges and call ranges, specifically in bubble play.I'm still raw with most of my ICM things. SNGWizard is a very helpful tool.In response to your question, $1.10 DoN SNGs are going to be difficult to beat the rake in, as are $1.20s. I may go down to the $0.25 45 and 90 mans and play those, there's no rake to be paid and I would imagine them to be super soft. You'll probably be able to beat the DoNs enough to get started but the rake is just awful. If you can get to around $50, I'd say start going at the $3.25 6 max SNGs or $1.10 45 mans, and then if you drop back to $30 going back to DoNs until you're able to get back and have success in the 6 max/45 mans. My main suggestion would be the 45 mans but I don't know your play well enough to give you a definitive answer.
Thanks for the advice, will update my progress soon.

#12 coug2828

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:03 PM

View Postrrumsey, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 5:58 PM, said:

no i mean like ass crazy vp's of 75-80 and Af of like 90-100% just nothing you can do besides make hands against them. donk bets 90-100% the time. it is not the move that is the problem, the insane frequency of weird plays makes everythingt so polarized, plus without fail every single $1 tourny i have played you have MR I OPEN SHOVE EVER SINGLE HAND. it becomes gambling. i hate that. people treat $1 dollar like it is play chips or worst
little help here...what's a vp and pf? don't really use poker tracker, assuming it's something from that? i do have poker tracker installed on my computer but i never got a good understanding of what all the info meant so stopped using it.

#13 Sick Boy

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:09 PM

Cool thread.

#14 CodyDean

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 03:45 AM

good thread tho
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#15 lurbz

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 03:58 AM

View Postcoug2828, on Tuesday, December 29th, 2009, 9:03 PM, said:

little help here...what's a vp and pf? don't really use poker tracker, assuming it's something from that? i do have poker tracker installed on my computer but i never got a good understanding of what all the info meant so stopped using it.
VPIP = Voluntarily Put In Pot, in other words any hand you put chips into the pot preflop without being in the blindsAF = Aggression Factor, even though he's using the wrong acronym in his complaining. The one he's talking about is PFR%, or Pre Flop Raise %, the % of hands you raise preflop.
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#16 lurbz

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:02 AM

First HH post...I don't have the full one, this is old and from a chat log that I found with a big time 45 man grinder.The question here is not about the A8 shove, it's pretty much the bottom of my range and I'm not worried about it, there are no regs at this table. The question I pose here is whether the BB's AK in this spot (8 handed, 7 pay) is a fold given stack sizes?Again, the A8 is irrelevant, we're playing this from BB's perspective.Table '224242391 4' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 2: Hookjaw72 (13080 in chips) Seat 3: BBsRJReich (16378 in chips) Seat 4: 305man (4204 in chips) Seat 5: Huma Dracos (10420 in chips) Seat 6: M_a_C_a_K_87 (11658 in chips) Seat 7: x.neophyte (7580 in chips) Seat 8: SweetBiscuit (2125 in chips) Seat 9: originalbill (2055 in chips) Hookjaw72: posts the ante 50BBsRJReich: posts the ante 50305man: posts the ante 50Huma Dracos: posts the ante 50M_a_C_a_K_87: posts the ante 50x.neophyte: posts the ante 50SweetBiscuit: posts the ante 50originalbill: posts the ante 50originalbill: posts small blind 400Hookjaw72: posts big blind 800*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to BBsRJReich [8d Ah]BBsRJReich: raises 15528 to 16328 and is all-in305man: folds Huma Dracos: folds M_a_C_a_K_87: folds x.neophyte: folds SweetBiscuit: calls 2075 and is all-inoriginalbill: folds Hookjaw72: calls 12230 and is all-inUncalled bet (3298) returned to BBsRJReich*** FLOP *** [Tc 5d 2d]*** TURN *** [Tc 5d 2d] [9d]*** RIVER *** [Tc 5d 2d 9d] [9c]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hookjaw72: shows [Kc Ad] (a pair of Nines)BBsRJReich: shows [8d Ah] (a pair of Nines - lower kicker)Hookjaw72 collected 21910 from side potSweetBiscuit: shows [Ks Qh] (a pair of Nines - lower kicker)Hookjaw72 collected 7025 from main pot
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#17 RakeMyBlind

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:08 AM

View Postlurbz, on Wednesday, December 30th, 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

First HH post...I don't have the full one, this is old and from a chat log that I found with a big time 45 man grinder.The question here is not about the A8 shove, it's pretty much the bottom of my range and I'm not worried about it, there are no regs at this table. The question I pose here is whether the BB's AK in this spot (8 handed, 7 pay) is a fold given stack sizes?Again, the A8 is irrelevant, we're playing this from BB's perspective.Table '224242391 4' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 2: Hookjaw72 (13080 in chips) Seat 3: BBsRJReich (16378 in chips) Seat 4: 305man (4204 in chips) Seat 5: Huma Dracos (10420 in chips) Seat 6: M_a_C_a_K_87 (11658 in chips) Seat 7: x.neophyte (7580 in chips) Seat 8: SweetBiscuit (2125 in chips) Seat 9: originalbill (2055 in chips) Hookjaw72: posts the ante 50BBsRJReich: posts the ante 50305man: posts the ante 50Huma Dracos: posts the ante 50M_a_C_a_K_87: posts the ante 50x.neophyte: posts the ante 50SweetBiscuit: posts the ante 50originalbill: posts the ante 50originalbill: posts small blind 400Hookjaw72: posts big blind 800*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to BBsRJReich [8d Ah]BBsRJReich: raises 15528 to 16328 and is all-in305man: folds Huma Dracos: folds M_a_C_a_K_87: folds x.neophyte: folds SweetBiscuit: calls 2075 and is all-inoriginalbill: folds Hookjaw72: calls 12230 and is all-inUncalled bet (3298) returned to BBsRJReich*** FLOP *** [Tc 5d 2d]*** TURN *** [Tc 5d 2d] [9d]*** RIVER *** [Tc 5d 2d 9d] [9c]*** SHOW DOWN ***Hookjaw72: shows [Kc Ad] (a pair of Nines)BBsRJReich: shows [8d Ah] (a pair of Nines - lower kicker)Hookjaw72 collected 21910 from side potSweetBiscuit: shows [Ks Qh] (a pair of Nines - lower kicker)Hookjaw72 collected 7025 from main pot
If I'm the BB I think I make this call. SweetBiscuit's flat means nothing to me considering his stack size and your shove isn't likely going to be AA or KK considering your stack size. Most people are going to be doing a standard raise with hands that have us killed. The only part of this is that it is the bubble, but that shouldn't factor in too much as we should be trying to accumulate more chips and this seems like a good spot to double up and be in very good shape to take this down. If this is a sattelite I would probably fold trying to advance, but in a normal 45-man I don't think I could pass up this oppurtunity to double my stack.

#18 lurbz

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:28 AM

View PostRakeMyBlind, on Wednesday, December 30th, 2009, 9:08 AM, said:

If I'm the BB I think I make this call. SweetBiscuit's flat means nothing to me considering his stack size and your shove isn't likely going to be AA or KK considering your stack size. Most people are going to be doing a standard raise with hands that have us killed. The only part of this is that it is the bubble, but that shouldn't factor in too much as we should be trying to accumulate more chips and this seems like a good spot to double up and be in very good shape to take this down. If this is a sattelite I would probably fold trying to advance, but in a normal 45-man I don't think I could pass up this oppurtunity to double my stack.
My personal range here is KQs, A7-AK, 22-AA. I assign the same range to Biscuit.Therefore:Hand Pot equity Wins TiesAKo 36.69% 200,454 42,033KQs,A7-AK,22-AA 31.66% 177,192 28,212KQs,A7-AK,22-AA 31.65% 177,120 28,230even if I remove Biscuit from the equation...Hand Pot equity Wins TiesAKo 57.60% 1,719,623,724 253,313,808KQs,A7-AK,22-AA 42.40% 1,232,495,556 253,313,808Those numbers do not justify a call at all. Especially when you consider that if Biscuit happens to win this pot, the BB's call is only going to be a net ~9k gain, while if I win this hand, his net loss is 13k. It's borderline but I look to fold here in most spots, unless I have a solid read on a reg.In a 180 man it is a snapcall because of how top heavy the payout structure is, but in lower payout structures cashing starts becoming more of a priority.
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#19 coug2828

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 10:16 AM

been mostly playing MTT's recently but this might inspire me to get back into grinding sng's a little more.as for this

Quote

The question here is not about the A8 shove, it's pretty much the bottom of my range and I'm not worried about it, there are no regs at this table. The question I pose here is whether the BB's AK in this spot (8 handed, 7 pay) is a fold given stack sizes?Again, the A8 is irrelevant, we're playing this from BB's perspective.
i can see a case for either. folding and not mixing it up with a big stack here is the safest/smartest way to a cash(obv). fold makes even more sense with a few other small stacks on the verge of going out. open shove from utg leads me to thinking fold also...but i've had more than the 15 second time bank to think about it, things look a little different in the moment. that said, i don't think a call is too bad. with a small stack calling there's a little added insurance of him getting busted and allowing me to squeak into a min-cash even if i lose. if i call and win the hand, i coast to the top 3 which is where the majority of the money is.

#20 potatoman

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 10:59 AM

I'd call, but it's close. I'd have narrowed your range to hands you don't want to see a flop with - AJ - A8, 44-JJ and maybe KQs. Oh, course, I almost never play multi-table sngs, but when I do, I play for a win when the decision is close.I would personally have folded A8 in this spot, knowing that people will incorrectly make hero calls with as little as KQs/44's. Against regs, you can sometimes be a bit looser with your shoves, since they will have very predictable call ranges.Just my humble opinion.Nice thread.




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