80 replies to this topic

[SweetDee]

dna4ever, on Monday, December 7th, 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

This subject was brought up over beers this weekend.A week or two ago a guy here got executed in Nashville for 3 early 80's murders of a 2 men and a child.Over his near 30 year stint in prison he came to find the Lord.He publicly asked the Lord to forgive him for his sins during his last words.Is he in Heaven now?2nd part ... Can a serial killer kill someone every night and ask for forgiveness each night then wash, rinse and repeat the same said sin with said request for the Lord's forgiveness and still be invited past the Pearly Gates?

This would bug me if this were true. As I understand it from what I have learned about God and the bible, we serve God with our minds. A man who can commit these types of acts generally has a mind that is, for lack of better words, gone. A semblance of himself is there but he is basically broken. He still is a walking, talking flesh and blood human being but lacks the ability to make that kind of commitment to God. If he lived 5 more minutes he is just as likely to say "Hey, look at that guard. I would like to rape her and kill her, that would be sweet." Nothing has actually changed in the mind itself. As for the second question, I believe that's a no as well, as I understand it repentance is necessary. A repeating of the offense would be a clear demonstration of a lack of repentance. That being said, at the end of the day only God can know the heart and mind, so who am I to say? That is one of the things that bothers me about the bible, not quite as black and white as I would personally like it to be. This thread is much nicer.

[speedz99]

SweetDee, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 4:44 PM, said:

This would bug me if this were true. As I understand it from what I have learned about God and the bible, we serve God with our minds. A man who can commit these types of acts generally has a mind that is, for lack of better words, gone. A semblance of himself is there but he is basically broken. He still is a walking, talking flesh and blood human being but lacks the ability to make that kind of commitment to God. If he lived 5 more minutes he is just as likely to say "Hey, look at that guard. I would like to rape her and kill her, that would be sweet." Nothing has actually changed in the mind itself.

So what's the line you believe can't be crossed and that person still have a mind that's capable of repentence? I'll cut to the chase...it's impossible to pick such a line without some intense areas of gray that come back to the fact that only god knows how we truly feel. Which means that yes, if Hitler lived out his life in Argentina after faking his death and truly felt horrible about what he did and fully accepted Jesus, etc., he would be accepted into heaven. Whether or not you personally think he'd be capable of that is kind of beside the point, right? You know, if I believed in christianity, which I don't. Just stating how I'm pretty sure the whole thing is supposed to work.

[SweetDee]

speedz99, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 5:58 PM, said:

So what's the line you believe can't be crossed and that person still have a mind that's capable of repentence? I'll cut to the chase...it's impossible to pick such a line without some intense areas of gray that come back to the fact that only god knows how we truly feel. Which means that yes, if Hitler lived out his life in Argentina after faking his death and truly felt horrible about what he did and fully accepted Jesus, etc., he would be accepted into heaven. Whether or not you personally think he'd be capable of that is kind of beside the point, right? You know, if I believed in christianity, which I don't. Just stating how I'm pretty sure the whole thing is supposed to work.

I (think) the answer to this is something most people will never come close to knowing the exact moment, meaning, most people have lines they just don't cross. Meaning, I may kill someone to protect a child from being hurt but I would not kill a child because it felt good and was sexually arousing. There is a line there where I believe we instinctively know there is no more humanity, just evil. There is no real depth to this, you just know it, in your mind you know that this is evil and can only end in evil. Just my 2 cents.

[speedz99]

Never mind...someone else take this, please.

[SweetDee]

speedz99, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 7:31 PM, said:

But what you're describing doesn't even require forgiveness. Are you saying that god doesn't forgive those who do evil at any point in their lives?

No. I am saying that some evil requires one to give themselves over to something else first, and when that is done there is no turning back. The mind can never be anything but evil from that point on. We see this alot in cases like child molesters, this is why things like chemical castration is actually done. The mind cannot be repaired in and of itself, so one must trick the body with medication to stop what the mind thinks. Take away the restraints and the molestation begins anew. God would forgive if they were capable of asking for forgiveness and were actually repentant, but they are not. They can't be. That's why I said what I said about instinctively knowing where the line is. Dahmer, if released, would have been chowing down on people within days. He had no choice in the matter, he was no longer master of his domain.

[speedz99]

SweetDee, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 6:38 PM, said:

No. I am saying that some evil requires one to give themselves over to something else first, and when that is done there is no turning back. The mind can never be anything but evil from that point on. We see this alot in cases like child molesters, this is why things like chemical castration is actually done. The mind cannot be repaired in and of itself, so one must trick the body with medication to stop what the mind thinks. Take away the restraints and the molestation begins anew. God would forgive if they were capable of asking for forgiveness and were actually repentant, but they are not. They can't be. That's why I said what I said about instinctively knowing where the line is. Dahmer, if released, would have been chowing down on people within days. He had no choice in the matter, he was no longer master of his domain.

You're describing an invisible line between good and evil. This line is standard for everyone...it has to be, since if you let everyone choose their own line you'd have Hitler and a whole host of suicide bombers getting into heaven because from their points of view they were honestly doing mankind a service. So since this line is standard, every action can be lumped into a binary "not evil" or "evil". That's not as easy as you think, and while I agree that the Dahmers of the world probably would never truly repent, because they believed what they did was all well and good, I think there are lots of other examples of people who did horrific things that really could ask for forgiveness and mean it.

[vbnautilus]

speedz99, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 6:31 PM, said:

Never mind...someone else take this, please.

Nope. Forum rules, once you fulfill Godwin's Law you're on your own.

[SweetDee]

speedz99, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 8:15 PM, said:

You're describing an invisible line between good and evil. This line is standard for everyone...it has to be, since if you let everyone choose their own line you'd have Hitler and a whole host of suicide bombers getting into heaven because from their points of view they were honestly doing mankind a service. So since this line is standard, every action can be lumped into a binary "not evil" or "evil". That's not as easy as you think, and while I agree that the Dahmers of the world probably would never truly repent, because they believed what they did was all well and good, I think there are lots of other examples of people who did horrific things that really could ask for forgiveness and mean it.

I agree it's not as easy as I made it sound, which is why it always comes down to "only God knows". I just think it's a lot easier to make a judgment call as a human from the outside looking in than some religious people would like to make it. I like what you said about the line being standard for everyone, but I disagree. I think each person has an individual invisible line that if they push it, they can snap and no longer have that whole mind, master of the domain. I have a stepsister who had an abortion, spent a month sleeping in graveyards, wailing away and wallowing in filth, wracked with guilt, because she believed that what she had done was it for her,no turning back. She currently resides in a mental institution where it would seem she was right- she is not all there, a wrecked human being. She had lived a life where she had made all kinds of what one would classify as bad choices, but that particular one for whatever reason was the catalyst for the abyss, madness I guess. I also dated a woman who had had 4 abortions and it was like getting a tooth pulled, no big deal. Who knows where her line is? I also have a sister in law who attempted to sell her kids to an undercover FBI agent as sex slaves. She seems to be a rational human being, and is currently serving a 20 plus sentence, but this person, if you knew her, for whatever reason can't seem to make a solid choice about much of anything. When given a choice between good and bad, she most often will go bad, and egregiously so. I am sure she has decided to turn to the lord, and convincingly so, but I am also sure that if she were let out, it would be back to doing all the wrong she could. Her repentance would most likely never be real. The moral of the issue is the mind is fascinating and I need a new family.

[CaneBrain]

Balloon guy, on Tuesday, December 8th, 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

This from the guy who can't push an elevator button on Saturdays? ( if he was Kosher )

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

[brvheart]

CaneBrain, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 8:39 AM, said:

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

What are the chances that after you guys both left, that he used the remote? I mean, certainly, I would assume that he didn't, but the chances HAVE to be at least 30% or higher, right? People just put up fronts, is all I'm getting at.

[CaneBrain]

brvheart, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

What are the chances that after you guys both left, that he used the remote? I mean, certainly, I would assume that he didn't, but the chances HAVE to be at least 30% or higher, right? People just put up fronts, is all I'm getting at.

He was already exploiting loopholes left and right so 30% sounds fair. But he went to a lot of trouble in the first place (walking 2 miles or so in MIAMI in a suit shows commitment). When we got back from the game, he was passed out snoring in the chair with the tv still on the same channel.

[brvheart]

CaneBrain, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 9:20 AM, said:

He was already exploiting loopholes left and right so 30% sounds fair. But he went to a lot of trouble in the first place (walking 2 miles or so in MIAMI in a suit shows commitment). When we got back from the game, he was passed out snoring in the chair with the tv still on the same channel.

I think the percentage probably just went to about 75, although the game would have been over, and so he might not have cared anymore.

[speedz99]

SweetDee, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 3:34 AM, said:

I like what you said about the line being standard for everyone, but I disagree. I think each person has an individual invisible line that if they push it, they can snap and no longer have that whole mind, master of the domain. I have a stepsister who had an abortion, spent a month sleeping in graveyards, wailing away and wallowing in filth, wracked with guilt, because she believed that what she had done was it for her,no turning back. She currently resides in a mental institution where it would seem she was right- she is not all there, a wrecked human being. She had lived a life where she had made all kinds of what one would classify as bad choices, but that particular one for whatever reason was the catalyst for the abyss, madness I guess. I also dated a woman who had had 4 abortions and it was like getting a tooth pulled, no big deal. Who knows where her line is? I also have a sister in law who attempted to sell her kids to an undercover FBI agent as sex slaves. She seems to be a rational human being, and is currently serving a 20 plus sentence, but this person, if you knew her, for whatever reason can't seem to make a solid choice about much of anything. When given a choice between good and bad, she most often will go bad, and egregiously so. I am sure she has decided to turn to the lord, and convincingly so, but I am also sure that if she were let out, it would be back to doing all the wrong she could. Her repentance would most likely never be real.

Ok, let's go with the abortion things. Assuming that abortion is a sin:Woman 1: Is like your stepsister. Is wracked with guilt and feels like an evil human being. Is bordering on madness because of crossing her personal line into the abyss.Woman 2: Is like the woman you dated. Has had 4 abortions and feels fine about it. No big deal.As far as I can tell, you're saying that W1 can never repent, because she has crossed her line into the realm of evil, and her mind is not capable of, etc. W2 has not crossed her personal line, and therefore still has full ability to understand repentence and forgiveness, etc. This seems backwards to me.

[brvheart]

speedz99, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 9:31 AM, said:

Ok, let's go with the abortion things. Assuming that abortion is a sin:Woman 1: Is like your stepsister. Is wracked with guilt and feels like an evil human being. Is bordering on madness because of crossing her personal line into the abyss.Woman 2: Is like the woman you dated. Has had 4 abortions and feels fine about it. No big deal.As far as I can tell, you're saying that W1 can never repent, because she has crossed her line into the realm of evil, and her mind is not capable of, etc. W2 has not crossed her personal line, and therefore still has full ability to understand repentence and forgiveness, etc. This seems backwards to me.

I haven't even bothered to pay attention to SweetDee yet, and this isn't going to help, but it does bring up an interesting theological situation.I believe that the same act by two different people can be a sin for one and not for the other.

[SBriand]

brvheart, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

I haven't even bothered to pay attention to SweetDee yet, and this isn't going to help, but it does bring up an interesting theological situation.I believe that the same act by two different people can be a sin for one and not for the other.

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

[crowTrobot]

SBriand, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

yup, fundamentalist christian moral relativists are pretty hard to find to find for some reason.

[brvheart]

SBriand, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

YOU MINDMY BLEW JUST

crowTrobot, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 1:10 PM, said:

yup, fundamentalist christian moral relativists are pretty hard to find to find for some reason.

There are plenty of 'sins' that most people wouldn't find immoral.

[Balloon guy]

CaneBrain, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 6:39 AM, said:

Actually being Kosher only applies to food. If I observed the Sabbath rigorously, I would not even be able to use an elevator. But, I do not do any of that nonsense. Reform judaism ftw.An illustrative story:Sukkot (The Jewish holiday celebrating the harvest) fell on a Sunday this year. I was going with a buddy to the Dolphins Bills game. Before we left, we helped an orthodox buddy of his get set up for the game. We had to put the tv on the right channel (because he could not use the remote). We had to light a candle (so he could smoke if he pleased...no using lighters!). We had to put some water out next to him so he could have something to drink. Very complicated.I would have been more annoyed but the kid walked 50 blocks in a suit and tie just to get to my buddy's apartment because his parents never would have let him exploit loopholes like that to watch the game. He earned it.

I thought there was a restriction on the number of steps they could take also...But part of me has a huge amount of respect for people who can live their faith to the point of major inconvenience. At my church if we avoid R rated movies people get high-minded

[brvheart]

Balloon guy, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 1:27 PM, said:

I thought there was a restriction on the number of steps they could take also...But part of me has a huge amount of respect for people who can live their faith to the point of major inconvenience. At my church if we avoid R rated movies people get high-minded

I didn't see an R rated movie until I was in college.

[Balloon guy]

brvheart, on Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

There are plenty of 'sins' that most people wouldn't find immoral.

I love these parts of the Bible, they show such a deepness in our lives that the people like crow can never understand with their shallow understanding.We are commanded not to do things that we do not feel are sin, but a weaker brother would consider it sin. So our liberty isn't to be used to cause a weaker brother to stumble. Used in context we were to avoid eating meats that were offensive to our Jewish brother. The Gentiles were not converted to Judaism when they become saved, so they could eat pork. To the Jewish believers this was offensive. So the command was to not do things that hurt others. The more mature understanding was that we are no longer bound by the legal system created in the OT, so the eating of pork was no longer a sin. But for the Jew, raised with this rule, and being ingrained, it wasn't a big deal if they choose to keep kosher.Of course the Bible also prevented this from becoming a 'get out of sin free' card. It also commands us that to him who considers something to be sin, to him it is sin. For me I got sober 6 years before becoming saved, so drinking or doing drugs is a sin for me. Doesn't matter that I believe I am delivered from my addiction, for me to drink is to sin. I also bear a responsibility to the people in my life that consider it sin for me to drink, my parents, my unsaved sober friends. So for me to drink because I believe I am delivered, would cause them to stumble, or be hurt. This I am told not to do. I order wine for my wife, sit with buddies who drink beer while we play poker etc, and I hold no feelings of them having any issues with it, it is a personal sin issue for me, and so I obey the command to place my brother's needs over my own.That and snort coke on weekends to take the edge off.