17 replies to this topic

[Jordan]

Alright fellas. Last night I was looking to play some poker. My bankroll is 2k, so I thought sitting down in a 3/6 limit game would be correct.My bud and I go to this card club in Westerville, first time I've been there, one of the few times I've played limit. Anyways, I mostly play NL cash games, but I thought I could do well here with my limited knowledge (no pun intended). I went in with the intention of playing a solid game and trying to remember some of the things I've learned from reading this strategy forum. It's kinda funny how just reading about limit hold em' helps going into it. Anyways, I have a few hands where I didn't quite know how to figure if I had the right price.I'm really bad at math, so I normally just try to count the BB in a pot and move forward. I understand the bigger the pot the better your draw, implied odds, etc.In this hand I have 7 2 in the BB.UTG (Weak Tight) Limps, UTG+1 (Weak Tight) Limps, MP1 calls (total fish, any two cards- I have a story about him later), button calls (too loose preflop, called down a lot) SB completes, I check.9 7 5 So I flopped middle pair with a flush draw. I like this situation but don't know the best way to play it in accordance with the math part of hold em'. I decided to Check, UTG bet, UTG+1 call, button call, SB fold, I called. This is correct here? If anyone could help me out with the math on how to figure this out, it would be nice. I thought I was getting the right price though, but...guestimating. Turn 6 I checked again, UTG bet, UTG+1 call, button fold, I decided to fold. I really didn't know what to do here. These guys played so weak tight, simply betting and calling was screaming big hands. Math wise, I don't know if I should call here. I will be paid off by both of them if I hit my hand on the river, I can tell you that for sure. No one folded here (rarely).River was the 4 UTG bet, UTG+1 calls.UTG :: 88UTG+1 :: QQThis was one of the times I think I needed better math skills and the formula to figure out my odds. I know it is easy to do, I just didn't know here and decided to fold. I really didn't think my pair was good here, and figured I would have to hit my flush to win the pot.I think overall on the night I played well. I went through a good run at the beginning of the session making $100, but then lost my profit and $20. I stayed though because I knew I was playing well and the game was good. My losses were as follows AK: -$21. I three bet this hand twice from LP, and only did a continuation bet once. The other hand it was checked to me and I checked. That hand went to a showdown and it turned out the EP raiser had JJ while the man who won took it down with Trips 10s (AT). I really didn't want to bet my A high into so many opponents. They were giving me respect, but I really thought I'd be called down and my outs to improve were probably not clean.My other big loss was in a kill pot, just an unlucky beat that cost me about $31.I made a comeback while shorthanded. First let me tell you about the Fish I described earlier.The UTG (AA) player from earlier (weak tight) raised, fish (KK), if I remember correctly, re-raised, UTG called.UTG ended up flopping a set, bet it, turn was a king, bet, raise, he only called?River, the case king. he check called his full house, the fish turned quads. No one expected it. I mean, who check calls Aces full of kings there?My comeback hands.SH play. 6 handed.I post the BB with 9 7 Everyone limps to button who raises. Button was the same guy from the first hand I posted. I had him on big cards right away. He normally limped every hand, if he raised he either had AK AQ KQ KJ, or of course the big pairs.Flop 9 5 2 (something like that, no real draw)I bet, 4 callers (UTG weak tight, UTG+1 weak tight, FISH, button)Turn was an 8I again bet, call, fold, call, foldI'm leading here cause I alreay misplayed a few hands by checking and going check around. Very few people bet, most called. Very few raises.River was my 7, but also a possible straight.I decided to lead though once more. I thought if I don't bet here and it goes checked around I'm going to be pissed. People had been calling down with crap hands so I expected to:A) Get a caller who had a 6 (yea, he wouldn't raise)B) Get a caller who paid me offC) Get raised by someone who most likely had the straight.D) Folds.The point is, no one would bet here unless they had the six.UTG folds, fish calls, saying something like, "You don't play these cards". I turned my two pair and he mucked. I'm betting he had a pair of 5s, or maybe a 9 as well.Wow, I completely forgot this hand. This was a big one for me. It was a kill pot. The SB raised to 12, I called in the BB with A8o. I decided to defend this against a weak opponent. I was going to try and outplay him, if possible. The fish, who had limped also called. Although these guys were "bad" players, they realized what kinda game I hand been playing. They showed me respect, a little.FLOP4 Q 4 rainbow.SB bet, didn't surprise me. I decided to call, prayed that the fish would fold, cause if he didn't I would not try to bluff the turn. He did, and I was pleased.Turn 9SB checked to me, I bet $12 (kill pot), he called me. I really didn't know if I should have him on the Q here or big cards. Maybe a PP. All posibilities. I was going to continue with the bluff though and pray he'd fold. Hopefully my image would do me good.River (total blank I forget) 2?He checks again, I put out $12, he folds. Phew.There was money in this pot and I wanted it. Worked out here, I don't know how many times it will, but I was really trying to play off my image.Next pot (still short handed) I raised with Q9o from CO. The Weak Tight on my left folded (button), SB (WT) called, BB (FISH) called, UTG+1 called.I flopped my 9 and again I did all the betting. I think this is pretty basic. In these kinda pots I was usually the most nervous about someone hitting a random two pair cause people just smooth called all day. Very little raises. I believe I went to a show down with the Fish who again, didn't believe I played a 9 in my hand. I rolled the Q9 and took the pot. I was also slightly berated for raising the hand. "What's up man? You don't play those hands, do you?", "How do you raise 6 with Q9o?"I'm thinking my table image has really paid off tonight. It seems everyone put my on AK whenever I raised. I leave the table with my profit and head over to a full 3/6. It's late now, and by late I mean early. I started at 11pm and now it's about 3:45am. I decide I'm only going to play one round and then go to bed.I pick up 22 in the BB, it gets raised from MP, basically...the entire table calls. It was 10 handed and I think 8 took a flop. The guy on my direct left folded and as I called I told him I needed a miracle to win.FLOP2KKI lead into this pot, expecting to be raised by a king. Nope. I couldn't believe it. I got a few callers, not as much as I expected. I'm not sure if I misplayed the hand. I think yes and no. It's hard for me to say.I checked the turn, J, and to my unbelief it was checked by 3 others. At this point I'm pissed I just missed a lot of bets. River was a blank and I fire, one caller. I was going to C/R the turn (wrong? I was goint to C/R and lead the River), figuring someone for that King. I really couldn't believe it went checked ar0und. It was still a big pot, but I missed at least 2-3 BB there.I left afterwards with no other hands to post.If you read this, thanks, I know it's long but I'm looking for some advice, espicially math wise. I made a few good lay downs on the night to the fish who kept rivering gut shots. I really didn't call off much money, I was usually doing the betting. Stats:Played :: 5 hoursBB/hour :: 5.3profit :: $160Thanks guys for input. I'd really appreciate it if someone broke down finding the proper odds to chase my flush.I'm looking forward to hitting this place up again, hopefully with a better understanding of some of the qwerks of limit.- Jordan

[cdddc75]

First hand:Bet the flop for value (flush draw + middle pair's chance of improving to two pair/trips).Check/call the turn (at 6.5 to 1, you should still stay in for your flush draw).Bet/raise the river if you call the turn.Final hand:Check/raise the flop, not the turn. Lead the turn.Read Small Stakes Hold'em (SSHE) if you plan on playing this game more.

[brando]

I'm no math guru but the 1st hand was a bad fold. There were 6 to the flop, so you're putting in about 17% of the money in the pot. Your hand here wins way more than 17% of the time. On the flop I would have check/raised you want to get as many bets in there as you can.The turn you have 2 options. You can lead out or check/call. I would have picked check/call. (any other input on the right play here?)The river you would have made your hand and as long as you didn't put anyone else on the flush draw you should be betting and raising.

[econ_tim]

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1. This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1. This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

[Jordan]

cdddc75 said:

First hand:Bet the flop for value (flush draw + middle pair's chance of improving to two pair/trips).Check/call the turn (at 6.5 to 1, you should still stay in for your flush draw).Bet/raise the river if you call the turn.Final hand:Check/raise the flop, not the turn.  Lead the turn.

Can you break down the math for me for figuring the pot odds for the flush draw? If you don't have time, don't worry about it.I also edited something above, nothing big though.- Jordan

[Jordan]

econ_tim said:

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

I know the odds are the same of hitting the actual flush. I know those odds =)Thanks for the break down.So, to call the turn, how much money should be in the pot? I'm sorry guys. I really am bad at math, and do not have a math mind. My ACT scores would have been much better had I not had to deal with math. My brain just doesn't function well with it.So, I'm calling 6 only if there is atleast 24 in the pot right? That's 4 big bets in a 3/6 game. Right?- JordanPS- i'm really bad at math, and it's kinda embarrasing. Please dont hate.

[cdddc75]

Your flush draw will come in 35% of the time on that flop. Even though a higher flush will occasionally beat yours, your pair of sevens will occasionally improve enough to win also, so figure that you win at least 30% of the time on that flop. With five in the pot, you want to bet that flop for value. Some might advocate a check/raise, but I wouldn't with a small flush draw.Even though that turn card puts four to a straight on the board, you should still check/call. There are already 5 BB in the pot and your flush only needs 4.1 to 1 odds to justify calling. With a bet and a call after your check, you're now getting 7:1 to call. SSHE has a ton of information about all this. Well worth the investment if you want to play at these limit stakes with any frequency.

[Jordan]

cdddc75 said:

Your flush draw will come in 35% of the time on that flop.  Even though a higher flush will occasionally beat yours, your pair of sevens will occasionally improve enough to win also, so figure that you win at least 30% of the time on that flop.  With five in the pot, you want to bet that flop for value.  Some might advocate a check/raise, but I wouldn't with a small flush draw.Even though that turn card puts four to a straight on the board, you should still check/call.  There are already 5 BB in the pot and your flush only needs 4.1 to 1 odds to justify calling.  With a bet and a call after your check, you're now getting 7:1 to call.  SSHE has a ton of information about all this.  Well worth the investment if you want to play at these limit stakes with any frequency.

Thx bro. Would it be wrong to say, that by just reading the strategy section I'm gaining some info that is taught in that book? I've never read any poker books, minus, caro's book of tells....so I don't know. Thanks for the breakdown again.- Jordan

[cdddc75]

Jordan said:

econ_tim said:

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

I know the odds are the same of hitting the actual flush. I know those odds =)Thanks for the break down.So, to call the turn, how much money should be in the pot? I'm sorry guys. I really am bad at math, and do not have a math mind. My ACT scores would have been much better had I not had to deal with math. My brain just doesn't function well with it.So, I'm calling 6 only if there is atleast 24 in the pot right? That's 4 big bets in a 3/6 game. Right?- JordanPS- i'm really bad at math, and it's kinda embarrasing. Please dont hate.

No hating here. It's easier to count bets than chips. 6 to the flop in an unraised pot = 6 small bets (since small blind completed). With a bet and three calls on the flop, there are now 10 small bets (SB)/5 big bets (BB) in the pot.When you check the turn, one bets and another calls, there are now 7 BB in the pot. Since you only have to call one, you're getting 7:1 odds to call.

[Jordan]

cdddc75 said:

Jordan said:

econ_tim said:

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

I know the odds are the same of hitting the actual flush. I know those odds =)Thanks for the break down.So, to call the turn, how much money should be in the pot? I'm sorry guys. I really am bad at math, and do not have a math mind. My ACT scores would have been much better had I not had to deal with math. My brain just doesn't function well with it.So, I'm calling 6 only if there is atleast 24 in the pot right? That's 4 big bets in a 3/6 game. Right?- JordanPS- i'm really bad at math, and it's kinda embarrasing. Please dont hate.

No hating here. It's easier to count bets than chips. 6 to the flop in an unraised pot = 6 small bets (since small blind completed). With a bet and three calls on the flop, there are now 10 small bets (SB)/5 big bets (BB) in the pot.When you check the turn, one bets and another calls, there are now 7 BB in the pot. Since you only have to call one, you're getting 7:1 odds to call.

Yea, most hands I was counting bets just for practice, but when I got involved in this hand I kinda brain farted and basically...screwed the pooch.- Jordan

[cdddc75]

Jordan said:

Thx bro. Would it be wrong to say, that by just reading the strategy section I'm gaining some info that is taught in that book? I've never read any poker books, minus, caro's book of tells....so I don't know.  Thanks for the breakdown again.- Jordan

You get some of the information here from that book, but so many of the concepts that we talk about (overcalls, value betting, pot equity, EV, etc.) that we use all the time here are explicitly defined in SSHE. I'm still quite a novice compared to wrto, KDawg, and several others, but at least I can follow their conversations now. Without reading SSHE, I'd say you're probably only getting 25-30% of what you could be getting out of this forum. That's still enough to improve your limit game a ton, but if you want to crush your 3/6 live game, SSHE will pay for itself many times over.

[Vade]

Strongly reccommend both the forum AND SSHE

[Jordan]

cdddc75 said:

Jordan said:

Thx bro. Would it be wrong to say, that by just reading the strategy section I'm gaining some info that is taught in that book? I've never read any poker books, minus, caro's book of tells....so I don't know.  Thanks for the breakdown again.- Jordan

You get some of the information here from that book, but so many of the concepts that we talk about (overcalls, value betting, pot equity, EV, etc.) that we use all the time here are explicitly defined in SSHE. I'm still quite a novice compared to wrto, KDawg, and several others, but at least I can follow their conversations now. Without reading SSHE, I'd say you're probably only getting 25-30% of what you could be getting out of this forum. That's still enough to improve your limit game a ton, but if you want to crush your 3/6 live game, SSHE will pay for itself many times over.

Interesting. I understand OC, VB, and EV. Pot equity: no.I think most of my knowledge of the game has just come from playing. Maybe it is time for a limit book.How much does the book cost? $15 at B & N or something?- Jordan

[Jordan]

Oh, I forgot to post this hand.I pick up AQo from SB. Monster for this table. It's SH and everyone calls. I decide to raise cause I believe I'm ahead here. The only guy I'm "worried" about is the player 2 to my left cause he limps everything.We take a flop 5 handed. I'm first to act.Q x xI bet, call, call, call, callturn is another Q, I bet, fold, fold, call (fish), callriver x I decide to bet here again, although the flush is possible. I'm betting here again because I will be called down by worse hands, maybe even a flush. Seriously, raises here were rare. If I checked here there was a big possibility of being checked around with my trips good. the button called with trips Queens but my A kicker won me the pot. Is it right to lead all streets? Serioulsy, this game was so passive I don't know if I could have got a C/R in on any street. If I was in a pot, and I didn't bet it just seemed everyone checked.- Jordan

[Vade]

Yeah, your line here should be bet,bet,bet3 bet the turn if raised, you have the monster trip queens

[cdddc75]

Jordan said:

Oh, I forgot to post this hand.I pick up AQo from SB. Monster for this table. It's SH and everyone calls. I decide to raise cause I believe I'm ahead here. The only guy I'm "worried" about is the player 2 to my left cause he limps everything.We take a flop 5 handed. I'm first to act.Q  x  xI bet, call, call, call, callturn is another Q, I bet, fold, fold, call (fish), callriver x  I decide to bet here again, although the flush is possible. I'm betting here again because I will be called down by worse hands, maybe even a flush. Seriously, raises here were rare. If I checked here there was a big possibility of being checked around with my trips good.  the button called with trips Queens but my A kicker won me the pot.  Is it right to lead all streets? Serioulsy, this game was so passive I don't know if I could have got a C/R in on any street. If I was in a pot, and I didn't bet it just seemed everyone checked.- Jordan

This hand is a great demonstration of pot equity. You raise preflop out of position because your hand is winning way more often than 20% of the time. Likely, your hand is good 35-40% of the time, and you're only putting in 20% of the money preflop. I like leading all the way here, especially against a loose/passive table. Great value bet at the end.

[dms26]

Jordan said:

econ_tim said:

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

I know the odds are the same of hitting the actual flush. I know those odds =)Thanks for the break down.So, to call the turn, how much money should be in the pot? I'm sorry guys. I really am bad at math, and do not have a math mind. My ACT scores would have been much better had I not had to deal with math. My brain just doesn't function well with it.So, I'm calling 6 only if there is atleast 24 in the pot right? That's 4 big bets in a 3/6 game. Right?- JordanPS- i'm really bad at math, and it's kinda embarrasing. Please dont hate.

On the turn you have about a 20% to hit your flush, but remember you have additional outs too. I would count the 2 other 7's that will give you 3 of a kind here too, also the other 2's give you two pair which may also win.So I'd say you have 11 sure outs and 2 maybe's, the 11 outs give about 22-24% chance. So you can call here as long as there are 3 big bets in the pot, easily enough for you to call in this situation.A good tool to use is cardplayer's odds calculator. You can put in your hand against any other hands an run a flop to see what % of the time you will win, which helps with calcuating pot odds. Go to their site and play around with it, it will help you get a little more comfortable calculating odds.

[Jordan]

dms26 said:

Jordan said:

econ_tim said:

The odds of hitting a flush are the same in limit as in no limit.If you have four to a flush with two cards to come, the odds you will hit are 2 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already twice the amount you will have to call in the pot.If you have four to a flush with one card to come, the odds you will hit are 4 to 1.  This means you can call a bet if there is already four times the amount you will have to call in the pot.

I know the odds are the same of hitting the actual flush. I know those odds =)Thanks for the break down.So, to call the turn, how much money should be in the pot? I'm sorry guys. I really am bad at math, and do not have a math mind. My ACT scores would have been much better had I not had to deal with math. My brain just doesn't function well with it.So, I'm calling 6 only if there is atleast 24 in the pot right? That's 4 big bets in a 3/6 game. Right?- JordanPS- i'm really bad at math, and it's kinda embarrasing. Please dont hate.

On the turn you have about a 20% to hit your flush, but remember you have additional outs too. I would count the 2 other 7's that will give you 3 of a kind here too, also the other 2's give you two pair which may also win.So I'd say you have 11 sure outs and 2 maybe's, the 11 outs give about 22-24% chance. So you can call here as long as there are 3 big bets in the pot, easily enough for you to call in this situation.A good tool to use is cardplayer's odds calculator. You can put in your hand against any other hands an run a flop to see what % of the time you will win, which helps with calcuating pot odds. Go to their site and play around with it, it will help you get a little more comfortable calculating odds.

Yea, I've used that site before. Well, I had the UTG man on the straight at the turn. He normally would have check/folded there if he didn't have it. I was only counting my flush draw. It still was the wrong fold no doubt, however I was folding the river with 2 pair, or trips. I would have bet my flush.- Jordan