95 replies to this topic

[JaoTi]

This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2.

A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this hand
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 players

BB: $130.45
UTG: $460.55
UTG+1: $241.40
CO: $411.70 (Hero)
Button: $400.00
SB: $208.10

Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40

Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80

River: ($302.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in

[dead money]

This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2.

A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this hand
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 players

BB: $130.45
UTG: $460.55
UTG+1: $241.40
CO: $411.70 (Hero)
Button: $400.00
SB: $208.10

Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40

Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80

River: ($302.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in

I maybe fold pre. Probably fold on the turn and def. fold on the river. If he is 6 tabling then there is little to no chance he is three barreling here.

[trystero]

tempted to call river because he has to show up w/aa/kk/tt and uh not likely

I def fold pre to his 3-bet, though...OOP and deep w/ a hand that has horrible RIO. could you explain why you had called? it seems like a pretty big mistake actually considering you don't know much about villain, and what you do know of him strikes you as a multitabling hudbot.

[Royal_Tour]

This is like my 15th hand at the table, villain is an unknown, 0/0 over 15 hands. I searched him though and he's 6 tabling 1/2.

A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this hand
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $1/$2 ante $0.30 - 6 players

BB: $130.45
UTG: $460.55
UTG+1: $241.40
CO: $411.70 (Hero)
Button: $400.00
SB: $208.10

Preflop: ($4.80) Hero is CO with (6 players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, Button raises to $26, 3 folds, Hero calls $20

Flop: ($62.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero calls $40

Turn: ($142.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $80, Hero calls $80

River: ($302.80) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $253.70, and is all in

with no reads on villain, i'm folding preflop.

and then as played, i'm folding the turn.

we're only beating QQ, JJ AJ or chopping with AQ. so i'm not digging the odds.

and with no reads its hard to say how he might play QQ on that board. would he purposely turn it into a bluff thinking you have exactly what you have?

its almost always a fold on the turn.

[rrumsey]

i fold pre or isolate 3 bet based on what i know about UTG, fold to his 3 bet and or 4 bet pre we don't wanna play this hand OOP

fold turn, def fold river we are just so crushed here, and if he is multitabling then his preflop action is even more strong and we could have folded pre

goal of multitablers is to probe and play small, they tend to play very TAG

[Merby]

Easy fold pre

[JaoTi]

lol wat, 200 deep against a player who is squeezing almost any two cards here? You can definitely fold pre, but it isn't 100% the best move by any stretch of the imagination. His squeeze range that deep in position includes a ton of worse hands, ainec. You can definitely call knowing that you can just c/c down and let him barrel into you. 6 tabling is far from a 'hudbot' too, easily few enough tables to be making some sort of move.

You know you really can't use that stuff as a tell at 200nl. These answers are so robotic and focusing on absolutely nothing of substance. "Oh no he 6 tables he absolutely must be playing small ball." LOL. The things I'm focusing on in this hand are that he sized turn really small and there is only one combo remaining of AA/KK.

[Royal_Tour]

lol wat, 200 deep against a player who is squeezing almost any two cards here? You can definitely fold pre, but it isn't 100% the best move by any stretch of the imagination. His squeeze range that deep in position includes a ton of worse hands, ainec. You can definitely call knowing that you can just c/c down and let him barrel into you. 6 tabling is far from a 'hudbot' too, easily few enough tables to be making some sort of move.

You know you really can't use that stuff as a tell at 200nl. These answers are so robotic and focusing on absolutely nothing of substance. "Oh no he 6 tables he absolutely must be playing small ball." LOL. The things I'm focusing on in this hand are that he sized turn really small and there is only one combo remaining of AA/KK.

why would you assume that? I mean you said you have no reads. You can assume he mght squeeze, but not really good enough reason to call.

raise or fold then. flatting leaves us in the middle of a busy street with no way out.

[Biff Goods]

I'll admit I am not very good at 200nl however...

After UTG folds can we 4bet/fold to a shove here? Seems to me that if he is squeezing he folds and if he has it then he tells us by putting in a 5th bet. I don't know what the EV comes out to be but it definitely plays easier being out of position with (to me) one of the worsts hand to play out of position with.

[JaoTi]

Well given he's 6 tabling I have to assume he's a reg who has some idea what he's doing, because he hasn't moved down to 100nl yet. And as a reg this is a really good spot to squeeze when you're deep and have position. He can definitely have better hands than mine, but he also definitely have worse. By raising I fold out every single hand I beat and get called/shoved on by every hand I lose to. There isn't a hand I can get value from except for maybe maybe maybe AJ. Raising here is only raising 'to find out where you're at' which is a big big mistake

[JaoTi]

I'll admit I am not very good at 200nl however...

After UTG folds can we 4bet/fold to a shove here? Seems to me that if he is squeezing he folds and if he has it then he tells us by putting in a 5th bet. I don't know what the EV comes out to be but it definitely plays easier being out of position with (to me) one of the worsts hand to play out of position with.

We're 200 deep, I really don't like 4betting, and again this is 4betting to find our where we're at. Why would we want to backraise when we rep really really really narrow and they can play perfect IP? This is raising 'to find out where we're at' again, and we're also not considering what possible hand we can rep by backraising.

[Biff Goods]

We're 200 deep, I really don't like 4betting, and again this is 4betting to find our where we're at. Why would we want to backraise when we rep really really really narrow and they can play perfect IP? This is raising 'to find out where we're at' again, and we're also not considering what possible hand we can rep by backraising.

Yah makes sense...I was more or less asking and not so much assuming that this was an optimal play.

I was assuming since UTG opened we were not repping anything... we were more or less turning our hand face up and declaring "I think you are full of shit." but I really didn't think that far ahead...it's an easy shove for Villain with ATC.


edit: wow....FCP didn't edit out my "shit"

[JaoTi]

Yeah it's a relatively sexy shove by him if he does that. Of course I will flat aces sometimes in that spot if I know that somebody behind me is really squeeze happy, but the person behind me doesn't know that and I have no info on the person behind me either; except I feel that when he does squeeze it's often as a bluff. And sometimes he might even flat the 4bet which would make me cry

[tskillz187]

And sometimes he might even flat the 4bet which would make me cry

I think you mean it would make you triple barrel bluff, unless you hit, then you'd c/c.

[tskillz187]

Also I don't think his sizing is a "tell" or w/e. I think he sized everything up pretty well, even from value stand point, maybe liek $88 on turn instead to make river slightly smaller, but he's not too worried about you flatting him OOP with suited connectors or something. So if he has AK/AA/KK he needs to try and get you to call with your 1 pair holdings and just pray you decide to look him up.

How bad does board have to come after you flop top pair for you to fold?

[JaoTi]

I think you mean it would make you triple barrel bluff, unless you hit, then you'd c/c.

Yep, that's the one

Also I don't think his sizing is a "tell" or w/e. I think he sized everything up pretty well, even from value stand point, maybe liek $88 on turn instead to make river slightly smaller, but he's not too worried about you flatting him OOP with suited connectors or something. So if he has AK/AA/KK he needs to try and get you to call with your 1 pair holdings and just pray you decide to look him up.

How bad does board have to come after you flop top pair for you to fold?

Well I think I mentioned it before, but I still think it's too small and probably more bluffy than say $90, which makes a river shove more sexy. The shove on the river seemed way closer to pot at the time too. I assume because rake was taken out or I can't read or something.

And what is 'folding top pair'? I've never heard of it. Is that where you click call even faster than normal?

[Royal_Tour]

Well given he's 6 tabling I have to assume he's a reg who has some idea what he's doing, because he hasn't moved down to 100nl yet. And as a reg this is a really good spot to squeeze when you're deep and have position. He can definitely have better hands than mine, but he also definitely have worse. By raising I fold out every single hand I beat and get called/shoved on by every hand I lose to. There isn't a hand I can get value from except for maybe maybe maybe AJ. Raising here is only raising 'to find out where you're at' which is a big big mistake

dude, you're talking backwards.

UTG folds, you 4bet, villain folds.. you scoop pot = sweet.

are you really trying to get cute with AQ OOP vs an unknown?? seriously? you need to re-examine this. (and the excuse that his squeeze range is wide, is silly. putting him on a wide range doesnt help us with EV)

[JaoTi]

It isn't always, but it's normally an indication. I have met the odd multitabling fish, who are gifts from heaven. And I am certainly not talking backwards.

We don't credibly rep any hands by 4betting, BTN folds sometimes sure, but they also flat or 5bet sometimes too because I don't rep much and people hate to fold. So I am losing all value with AQ and turning it into a bluff. Our EV is higher not 4betting in my mind, and I think that's relatively clear that in terms of EV it's probably fold/flat (both close and stylistic a lot) >>>>> 4bet.

[Royal_Tour]

It isn't always, but it's normally an indication. I have met the odd multitabling fish, who are gifts from heaven. And I am certainly not talking backwards.

We don't credibly rep any hands by 4betting, BTN folds sometimes sure, but they also flat or 5bet sometimes too because I don't rep much and people hate to fold. So I am losing all value with AQ and turning it into a bluff. Our EV is higher not 4betting in my mind, and I think that's relatively clear that in terms of EV it's probably fold/flat (both close and stylistic a lot) >>>>> 4bet.

if he flats your 4bet "because people dontlike to fold" you can still assign the same range to villain as you were doing previously by flatting his "squeeze"

You're not turning it into a bluff, because like you said. a lot of people flat here, but what you are doing is folding to a 5bet because we're almost certainly way behind.

There are optimal lines for this hand, and the way you played it was none. Thats my 2 cents. You are blindly throwing money into this pot with level 2 thinking.

you've assigned him a wide range because he oculd have been executing a squeeze. and now you're call stationing your way to a showdown hoping he'll turn over the wide range you are praying for.

thats all this hand is.

i also stand by my previous notion of folding pf

[JaoTi]

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here Royal. You're working from at least as many blind assumptions as I am.