4max

[Shark527 0]

This is the 4max 1000 cap tourney on stars. Down to the final 16. I have definitley been the most aggressive at the table. People's lack of 3betting from anywhere without monsters makes it easy to pick up pots. I am 4/16 in chips.The villian has been pretty solid and hasn't been making many moves preflop. Most of his aggression is post. His pattern of betting is 4x opener, then is a 1/2 pot C-bet and then either a check down, or an overbet of the pot on the turn. I know if I can flop a good hand, I would wait until the turn for a raise since so many of his chips would already be in. This is simply a sample hand to try to show his betting patternPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 2000/4000 Blinds 500 Ante (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB (t30380)Hero (BB) (t267582)UTG (t358619)Button (t49476)Hero's M: 33.45Preflop: Hero is BB with 10 , 10 UTG bets t12000, 2 folds, Hero calls t8000Flop: (t28000) 9 , Q , 3 (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets t25000, Hero calls t25000Turn: (t78000) 6 (2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets t100000, Hero foldsI didn't raise pre for the reason above. He actually bet more on the flop than he usually does which I think makes the turn fold a little easier.To the hand in question, less than ten hands laterPokerStars Game #35240036031: Tournament #210666984, $4.00+$0.40 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXV (2000/4000) - 2009/11/11 22:49:18 ETTable '210666984 67' 4-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: 23joey (22760 in chips) Seat 2: Shark527 (234582 in chips) Seat 3: doctor chan (377619 in chips) Seat 4: jackdueyoff4 (71096 in chips) 23joey: posts the ante 500Shark527: posts the ante 500doctor chan: posts the ante 500jackdueyoff4: posts the ante 50023joey: posts small blind 2000Shark527: posts big blind 4000*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Shark527 [Ts Kh]doctor chan: raises 8000 to 12000jackdueyoff4: folds 23joey: folds Shark527: calls 8000*** FLOP *** [2h 2d Kd]Shark527: checks doctor chan: bets 15000Shark527: calls 15000*** TURN *** [2h 2d Kd] [5s]Shark527: checks doctor chan: bets 50000Shark527: raises 157082 to 207082 and is all-inThis is the kind of situation I've been waiting for. I already knew he was putting 50k in before I checked the turn, but is this just a little too marginal for a push? Is there any other move? There seemed to be a lot of discussion in the chat after this hand which is why I posted.Thoughts on either hand, besides raising pre on the TT. "I don't know why one hand converted and one didnt."

[rbakken2504 0]

I dont have any experience with these 4 max tournies...but i do think in this spot you dont want to play a big pot, because k10 is so marginal. i dont think the villain has A2, KJ, KQ, or AK, i believe he would raise it up on the flop. The turn bet looks like a flush draw, it also could be a smaller pair...maybe he hit yahtzee with 55 on the turn? I wouldve probably led the turn and re-evaluate if called or raised, as checking leaves you in such a sticky spot to his bet. Does the villain play a lot of garbage suited hands like Q4 suited?

[rrumsey 0]

Hand #2 do you feel like you where betting hand for value? or as a move?/semi-bluff catcher? We are pretty marginal to the action we just showed, I mean we would be pretty happy for villain to fold imoHand #1 we could have let go on the flop but if he cbets a lot then i could see a peel but we are basically set mining at that point and hoping he doesn't show up with a straight

[SwolyswoND 1]

I don't think KT is marginal 4handed.That being said, I'm not sure I see the value in a c/r on the turn with the KT hand... he's never folding a better K, and he can maybe even get away from lower PP or a worse K. I think I c/c turn, and lead a blank river, c/c a club, and probably b/f an Ace river. I think you really need to 3bet the TT pre. This isn't full ring, his opening UTG isn't anywhere near as strong as it would be there. TT is super super strong 4handed, and being oop he's just going to own you here with pretty much his whole range. He can double barrel AK/AJ just as easily as his made hands. Just keep it simple here, 3bet pre, cbet flop, and personally I'd barrel the turn again.Edit: Club, not diamond. Obv talking about the flush draw completing.

[rrumsey 0]

I think you really need to 3bet the TT pre. This isn't full ring, his opening UTG isn't anywhere near as strong as it would be there. TT is super super strong 4handed, and being oop he's just going to own you here with pretty much his whole range. He can double barrel AK/AJ just as easily as his made hands. Just keep it simple here, 3bet pre, cbet flop, and personally I'd barrel the turn again.

very much agree with this part 10's are uber strong 4 way the chance that better pp are floating out there preflop go way down and we would love to try and pick a pots of preflopAnd i like what you said about the k10 hand i was stressing to come up with where this hand ranks, it is a hand, but barely, and it is a bit of a play, I just think it is an overplay to do that when you have so much showdown value but not a monster

[TrueAce13 18]

Usually I disagree with some stuff the you say swoly, but definitely think you have both these hands right on

[wildspoke 2]

That being said, I'm not sure I see the value in a c/r on the turn with the KT hand... he's never folding a better K, and he can maybe even get away from lower PP or a worse K. I think I c/c turn, and lead a blank river, c/c a diamond, and probably b/f an Ace river.

I think this is an excellent post. C/R the turn doesn't allow us to control the pot anymore. With one pair you want to keep the hand under control.He's already pumped 50k into the pot. Unless he's got air I don't think he's going away.

[Shark527 0]

I have only shown down winners while at the table with this player. I doubled up about 20 minutes prior with QQ over TT all in pre against a different player. Except for the preflop aggression, he seems to be playing about like I am. I'm dabbling in a lot of pots, but I usually have the goods when I'm betting the river, and thats the image I think, that he thinks of me.I still think I"m beating a lot on the turn and could get called with worse. I have been rarely caught bluffing which is another reason I pushed the turn. I pushed the turn simply to try and shut the hand down there. If I flat the turn, the pot size is 154k and my stack size is only 158. Do I c/f a river bet? Bet a blank? I think betting a blank river is the same as pushing the turn because the hand doesn't change. If he is on a draw, my pushing would more often make him fold and not give him the free card in position. Pushing also shuts down any potential for him to catch a winner card if he has a worse hand than mine.If his hand is better than mine, he's calling my turn push anyway and still betting the river. 1) So if I flat call turn, I'm pretty much priced into calling just about any river bet he throws out there?2) Does anyone think popping it pre with the KT is a better play?Looking back I would have juiced the pot with the TT but after observing how the player was acting and his betting pattern, I thought I could get an easy double up if I hit a hand and checked it over to him. I am 4/16 in chips and he has me covered so I thought it woud be an easier, safer way of getting chips and cruising deeper in the tourney. The other two stacks at the table have less than 20BB's left and playing passively. One is even limp folding occassionaly. Those two are why (villian and myself) stacks are growing

[SwolyswoND 1]

I still think I"m beating a lot on the turn and could get called with worse. I have been rarely caught bluffing which is another reason I pushed the turn. I pushed the turn simply to try and shut the hand down there. If I flat the turn, the pot size is 154k and my stack size is only 158. Do I c/f a river bet? Bet a blank? I think betting a blank river is the same as pushing the turn because the hand doesn't change. If he is on a draw, my pushing would more often make him fold and not give him the free card in position. Pushing also shuts down any potential for him to catch a winner card if he has a worse hand than mine.If his hand is better than mine, he's calling my turn push anyway and still betting the river. 1) So if I flat call turn, I'm pretty much priced into calling just about any river bet he throws out there?2) Does anyone think popping it pre with the KT is a better play?

I've got a couple of comments here - but first and foremost, the bolded portion is a leak. Never bet/raise/shove with the intention of ending the hand. You do it only - and I do mean only - to get called by worse or to fold out better.I already posted what I would do on various rivers. The reason why c/c turn, lead blank river is better is because now your hand looks more like a missed draw, so he will call the river wider than he will when you shove the turn. I c/c a club b/c there won't be much value in leading there - I don't see him calling PP under the K. I think his betting range is wider than his calling range on a club river, as he will (rightly) expect you dont have the flush when you check. B/f an Ace river is the iffy play, I don't mind a c/f in that spot either. Pretty ballsy for him to triple barrel TT-QQ for stacks in that spot, so I don't think you'd be beating much, so you certainly can't c/c an Ace river.You gotta get the mindset out of your head of "making him fold a draw" or "not letting him catch a winner." You can't change the correct plays from a fear of being outdrawn. Also, you mention that you haven't been caught bluffing - but then you use that as a reason to push the turn? That makes no sense - if your image makes you look strong, it just means he will fold out more hands you are ahead of. I guarantee you you are never folding out a better hand here though.And no, I would not be 3betting KTo to an UTG open, even 4 handed.

[Shark527 0]

I pushed the turn because of the pot size relative to my stack. The pot size is 154k on the turn with my call and my stack is 158k. I just thought it would put me in such an akward spot on the river being OOP. I think I let it worry me into making a irrational push without a solid reason.given stack size.....depending on river card..... Call up to a 1/2 pot bet on the river safely? Fold to a villian push, since he is showing serious strength firing every street?