Cold Calling A 3bet With Qq/kk/aa, Analysis of when this is appropriate Options

[Luke00016]

cold call the three bet just like you would with AA/KK and proceed with caution

i dont think i have ever called a 3 bet with AA or KK...

i might should learn that play

You definately should if you play 25NL or above

So, this was a discussion from another thread and I, at least, would like to delve a little deeper into it.

So, here's the situations. You have AA/KK/QQ in the SB and are facing a cold 3-bet. Both initial raiser and re-raiser are standard TAGs, although you have no particular reads on either of them. All of you have ~100BB stacks.

Do you cold call here? Why?

My analysis: I cold call with QQ and re-evaluate the flop. If it gets 4+ bet, it may be time to let the hand go, although not always (against a 4 bet and all-in 5 bet, I probably would). From the flop, proceed with caution.

With AA/KK I mostly cold call and hope for a re-raise (if it's going to be AA vs. KK, so be it, I'm not dumping KK preflop, like, ever). Sometimes I'll 4-bet PF if I think one of the villains loves their hand and will stack off with me PF, but that is read dependent. If it goes to the flop, I'm checking to the raiser and getting ready to stack off on safe flops.


Now, change this up a little bit. What is your play when you're in the same situation above, except you're on the button? If you're feeling really adventurous, what are your thoughts when one/both of the villains are LAG players?

[rrumsey]

personally i don't cold call a ton, but with Q's and maybe J's (this is probably debatable) it is probably best to do. KK im def pumping it up because it weeds out almost all the aces so i don't end up against AQ,AJ type hands. AA would be deceptive but your post flop ability has to be pretty decent because you may have to abandon ship at some point and have the disipline to know when to let go and when to shove

I make the effort to 4 bet with all three these hands because i hate when i let hands I was beating catch me, so decide what you wanna do with them.

AS for the second question, with lags a cold call from a 3 bet is mostly going to keep them in line anyways so i don't like that. Most lags like to pound until they see feedback so this action is a little to much. Maybe cold calling an open in early position to be able to 4 bet a 3 bet w AA but thats about it as far as im concerned

I mean raise them for value and hide there strength by 3 betting 910 suited or j10 suited type hands every now and then, i hate mixing up my game by slowing down a ton unless i have reads that villain is very tight

[Temporary Nuts]

KK im def pumping it up because it weeds out almost all the aces so i don't end up against AQ,AJ type hands.

So you'd rather see a 3-out draw fold, when they can make tp/tk hands and stack off when you're superior? You'd rather see them fold than pick up a large c-bet when they whiff? Hell, I've seen plenty of people call off with AQ or AJ high no draw in these situations just because by the time it is indicative that they should fold, their pot odds are ridiculous


Cold 4betting is just a really bad play to me because it crushes all your action except when you're behind or if you have an AA vs KK scenario... even fish get out of the way with hands they really really like. The only hand that it makes sense to me to cold 4bet is AK since that's the one premium hand you want to be playing for fold equity... the problem with that is, I will have polarized my range to exactly one hand, so basically I just never cold 4-bet.


There is one scenario that arises in 6-max that I think cold 4betting might be an ok play, but it is really rare to the point where my game almost never sees it, it just creates it.

Say you're in the BB, in the SB is a player like myself who three bets retardedly light, and the Button is a nit TAG who folds way too much. What you'll observe for a few orbits is the TAG open raising the button, and the SB coming over the top of him with a lot of frequency. If you pick up something like 99+ AJ+ It's a good idea to go ahead and 4bet it since there is a ton of dead money in the pot, and you shut the TAG's range down to AA/KK. I haven't done it... but when I see myself get cold 4bet by the BB when this arises it makes me wonder if they're adjusting or not (I rarely do wake up with AA/KK to find out).

[rrumsey]

So you'd rather see a 3-out draw fold, when they can make tp/tk hands and stack off when you're superior? You'd rather see them fold than pick up a large c-bet when they whiff? Hell, I've seen plenty of people call off with AQ or AJ high no draw in these situations just because by the time it is indicative that they should fold, their pot odds are ridiculous


Cold 4betting is just a really bad play to me because it crushes all your action except when you're behind or if you have an AA vs KK scenario... even fish get out of the way with hands they really really like. The only hand that it makes sense to me to cold 4bet is AK since that's the one premium hand you want to be playing for fold equity... the problem with that is, I will have polarized my range to exactly one hand, so basically I just never cold 4-bet.


There is one scenario that arises in 6-max that I think cold 4betting might be an ok play, but it is really rare to the point where my game almost never sees it, it just creates it.

Say you're in the BB, in the SB is a player like myself who three bets retardedly light, and the Button is a nit TAG who folds way too much. What you'll observe for a few orbits is the TAG open raising the button, and the SB coming over the top of him with a lot of frequency. If you pick up something like 99+ AJ+ It's a good idea to go ahead and 4bet it since there is a ton of dead money in the pot, and you shut the TAG's range down to AA/KK. I haven't done it... but when I see myself get cold 4bet by the BB when this arises it makes me wonder if they're adjusting or not (I rarely do wake up with AA/KK to find out).

i see merit in it but void of reads i hate handling Q's and J's ect and i guess playing it safe would be a better option. I mean i personally pray to be card dead early in a session to get reads and have a tight image to exploit later. Besides I play small stakes so the 4 bet is more for value in my mind. I can see in an uber tough table you need to adjust a little.
I can see doing this due to reads and image to kind of show villain what we wanna show him and trap, i could see some metagame here due to a history, but against total unknown i find myself being hyper TAG so i guess i should try and keep this in mind

[SCS]

Call 3 bets with AA/KK/QQ when villain has a high 3 bet% and high fold to 4bet%. This disguises your hand and strengthens your 3 bet calling range.

An example of this is you raise on the btn with AA and the bb 3bets. You should often call here.

All of this is going to depend on table dynamics, how villain perceives you and villain's tendencies.

[Merby]

I'm sure there is a table dynamic somewhere where I choose to cold-call QQ - AA OOP against a raise and a 3-bet... I just can't think of any now.

Yeah, I'm 4-betting all of these hands from the SB close to (if not) 100% of the time.

I'd much sooner consider cold-calling from the button (but, for the record, I'm 4-betting the majority of the time here too).

[Royal_Tour]

So, this was a discussion from another thread and I, at least, would like to delve a little deeper into it.

So, here's the situations. You have AA/KK/QQ in the SB and are facing a cold 3-bet. Both initial raiser and re-raiser are standard TAGs, although you have no particular reads on either of them. All of you have ~100BB stacks.
etc...

So you'd rather see a 3-out draw fold, when they can make tp/tk hands and stack off when you're superior? You'd rather see them fold than pick up a large c-bet when they whiff? Hell, I've seen plenty of people call off with AQ or AJ high no draw in these situations just because by the time it is indicative that they should fold, their pot odds are ridiculous

etc..

This is such a situational question IMO. Is this full ring?? also, AA or QQ can be a huge difference, depending on your position, who you're facing and your image at the table.

the table dynamics here are huge. with AA/KK i'm probably going to be 4betting this. Its preflop. We havent talked about stakes either. or live or online.. these are all huge factors.

Players are playing much more aggressively now a days. people making re-pops with suited connectors cuz they saw it on TV. etc etc..

I dont think you guys should limit yourselves to a "yes 4 bet, No cold call.. answer


p.s.
You all realize that the blind is the bet, then any amount higher is a raise.. right?

so its basically 2 actions in this spot... (i'm sure youre all aware but just clearing that up)

you'll be the 3rd, even tho its technically called a 4bet.

[babylondonks]

I cold 4bet bluff a fair proportion, so I 4bet the nuts generally too

[Temporary Nuts]

I cold 4bet bluff a fair proportion

Care to share the spots you do this in?

I just saw my first 2 today and all results oriented like I succeeded...

If you need incentive there's a hot one-eyed alien babe in it for you

[babylondonks]

Cold 4 betting is like Brannigan's law & Brannigan's love. Hard and fast.

You generally want to be in a CO/BTN/Blinds situation just to maximise equity in those kind of spots because you don't really want to flat very often. But really it just looks incredibly super strong and it's often a bad reg thing because bad regs like to 3bet too much in marginal spots. I can pull it off reasonably well because I have a very low 3bet% compared to how many hands I'm opening. I'd imagine since you've opened your game up it's going to be a lot tougher to get credit.

I also general like to do it with hands like Axs because we do have equity against a number of hands and an ace blocker, which is sexy.

Now pm me nudes of leela immediately pls.

[meservery]

I do not know if this applies and I do not have the hand history. I scribbled this down a few weeks ago while I was bored at work.

6 max 25 NLHE

CO (no reads) opens to $1
I 3 Bet OTB /w QQ to $3.5
SB (Gold Star) 4 Bets to $9.
BB Folds
CO Folds
I Flat...

Pot ~ 18, SB and I have ~ 20 left.

-If I flat here with QQ pre in this spot, should I also FLAT better?
--What about AKs, AKo?

[Temporary Nuts]

Now pm me nudes of leela immediately pls.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=leela


instead of getting banned I'll let you type the additional keywords like "nude" or "porn" or "giraffe"

[babylondonks]

Kif! Do that for me immediately!

[tskillz187]

Flatting 3bets > 4betting in position in general imo.

Cold 4 betting > Flatting like a ton because when you cold flat a 3bet you look like JJ or QQ so god damn often.

Also cold 4bet bluffing is so lollll babylon you're a nut dawg. I generally think that's a pretty bad play...if you're in a game where you are cold 4bet bluffing a lot you're in a pretty terrible game by my standards. Play post flop, exploit their big weaknesses, it's all the rage imo. Remember, preflop is the easiest street to learn and not suck at, so get past it to where you can maximize their mistakes for bigger amounts when you have bigger advantages.

Sadly that sounds a lot like DN advice lolzies.

[babylondonks]

Yeah but that's why you play 700 hands in a month . Doing it a lot is an overstatement but there are some pretty spectacular spots to do it in OOP (UTG+1 raises, CO 3balls, BTN fish folds because we obv have position on a fish, and we 4bet the SB) and keep in mind this is 100bb deep and not some super spew play 200bb deep OOP where we still have to somehow navigate a couple of streets with a garbage hand OOP.

[texan_driver]

For me so much depends on the table and my table image and the momentum if the game. However, my general default is OOP 4-bet with AA & KK and call the 3-bet with QQ and see a flop.

On the button, my general default is 4-bet with all of them.

I will vary all of this too if I've played with my opponents before and they know my tendancies and I know theirs.