A4o Utg

[Sick Boy 0]

I had a pretty serious diagreement with a friend of mine recently over this hand.Close to the bubble. You pick up A4o utg. Your M is 3. Table has a pretty even mix of tight and agressive players with stacks varying between 5-25 M. Whats the play?

[Ko8e34 0]

Snap fold.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Insanely easy fold.

[rrumsey 0]

Insanely easy fold.

agree we have only one over when we get called, at best

[outsider13 0]

Snap fold.

Insanely easy fold.

[BeaverStyle 1]

Shove, and then when you get looked up by A10, say, "I thought I had aces! WTFFFFFFFFFFF?!?!? FML!!"or fold.

[rrumsey 0]

Shove, and then when you get looked up by A10, say, "I thought I had aces! WTFFFFFFFFFFF?!?!? FML!!"or fold.

our just say you only looked at one card lol!!!

[TrueAce13 18]

Nits....Alright, I think about it and then fold

[Darth Maple 0]

Damn this is where I've gone wrong all my life. If the blinds are coming round and crushing our stack further wouldn't it be better to shove the A4 have a calller and pray he has KJ/KQ etc or do we let our stack shrink further and get about 3 or 4 callers when we finally do shove.Man I hope someone can explain why its an easy fold.

[HighwayStar 8]

I think it's probably borderline.

[rrumsey 0]

i probably shove this: A7+, K9+,Q9+,J8+,10-8+,2's+ i mean i wanna say shove any ace but i think with the bigger stacks probably calling us a lot i want a good chance at 2 overs for a decent race

[Sick Boy 0]

Im starting to feel like a bit of a dick here. I thought that was an easy shove...

[HighwayStar 8]

M of 3 is what? 7-8 BBs post antes? I could see this being a shove. Find a good shove chart and see for yourself. I think it'll be rigt on the border. A4s will def be a shove, A6/7o will def be a shove

[HighwayStar 8]

agree we have only one over when we get called, at best

Even if this was true, which it isn't, it's flawed thinking you see in far too many people - ie it doesnt matter if youre always behind when called, the chips you can people up when people fold more than outweights it. You're rarely going to be less than 30% vs a calling range too. Sa

[Sick Boy 0]

Even if this was true, which it isn't, it's flawed thinking you see in far too many people - ie it doesnt matter if youre always behind when called, the chips you can people up when people fold more than outweights it. You're rarely going to be less than 30% vs a calling range too.

Thats what I was thinking, it doesnt really matter if i get called by a better hand what mattered was that i needed to win a pot, and the amount of chips that were in the middle accounted for like 60% of my remaining chips or something sick like that. I didnt really wana get called but even if I did alot of the time I would have a shot....wouldnt I?

[HighwayStar 8]

It's a tough calculation to do with 8 people to act - you have to kind of guess at an average calling range.(this is assuming the blinds are 100/200/25 - the number at the bottom next to open shove is the EV of the shove)But say the table is "tight" and call with the top 7% on average - 88+,ATs+,KTs+,AQo+It#s +EV by a looong way.Say they call about 11% - 55+,A9s+,KJs+,ATo+,KQIt's -EV by a medium amount.Say they're crazy and calling really lose. - 17.6% - 22+,A6s+,KTs+,QJs,A7o+,KJo+It's really bad.I guess if they';re gonna be calling 20% + then it's going to start swinging into +EV again.So yea only shove if your table is insanely tight. I think if there were only 4 to 5 to act, it's going to be unexploitable against any calling ranges.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Yes, it's going to be quite hard to put people on a calling range here, for the short stacks Highway's middle range (the top 11%) will likely be the accurate, while the big stacks can gamble, will know how desperate you are, and will look you up as wide as Highway's wide range (top 17%). I agree that A7o would be okay, but 44-77 and A5-A7 will be big enough parts of their calling ranges to make A4 a poor shove here.As highway mentioned, its being UTG, not the cards themselves, that make it a poor shove. You're just not going to take this down often enough with 8 players remaining to make up for the poor equity you have when called.

[Biff Goods 0]

don't know if it's right or not but I usually fold this. closer to the button I shove.

[rrumsey 0]

its being UTG, not the cards themselves, that make it a poor shove. You're just not going to take this down often enough with 8 players remaining to make up for the poor equity you have when called.

this sums it up perfectly. deeper i could justify shoving this hand due to the increase folding equity we haveOh and one of the above post said closer the button shove this: yah if it is folded. In and 8 max i would wait till hijack or cutoff to push it, thats enough people out we start to like or situation imoI could see a possible shove if most of the table was around a M of 5-6ish makes the folding equity we need also