21 replies to this topic

[MNmiracleCJS]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (2 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($37.05)
Hero (SB) ($50.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , 10
Hero bets $1.50, BB calls $1

Flop: ($3) 5 , 10 , 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.50, BB raises to $7.50, Hero calls $5

Turn: ($12) 9 (2 players)
BB bets $7.50

ok so first off what do we think of the c/r on the flop is it ok to call here?

and if we dont fold there what do we do when that turn card hits if im calling the flop there do I have to call turn?

[Sick Boy]

Ship on flop.

Imo.

[MNmiracleCJS]

Ship on flop.

Imo.

level?

[SwolyswoND]

level?

Not an intentional one, at least. I'm sure he probably thinks it's correct.

Flop call is fine, please please please don't ship it.

Call turn, and call up to like 2/3 pot or so on river.

[rrumsey]

Not an intentional one, at least. I'm sure he probably thinks it's correct.

Flop call is fine, please please please don't ship it.

Call turn, and call up to like 2/3 pot or so on river.

I agree with swoly
meh villain has about 28 left behind and pot is about 13 thats is a bit of an overshove and probably doesn't get called a ton. I do see the problem, any strong turn and everyone is commited. meh i guess it is possible for villain to have flopped a set. Calling is ok pot odds wise but then we have the problem of future action. Folding is too nitty, so a shove wouldn't be out of the question but i think it is too much an overshove for this to ever get called by weaker hands on flop. It probably gets the folding equity it needs to work, and helps defend against later C/r so i see some good to it, i probably as played call flop which would make turn standard call and we call pretty much any small to medium bet on river. Personally that flop is so dry that a check behind would have been ok we kind of told villain i have an ok hand go away, which means some sort of 10 so we have the problem of not ranging him too easily but him having us nailed on our hand.

[MaxStPolish]

i probably as played call flop which would make turn standard call and we call pretty much any small to medium bet on river.

While I agree that for this particular hand this would be the easiest route to a showdown, by not raising you have essentially no clue where you are in the hand. Also, this is heads' up play......villain doesn't need a set to try and check-raise the flop. Obviously you proceed with a bit more caution here....but I don't see why you wouldn't call this turn bet. As far as I know, TPTK plays pretty well heads up. I mean, this hand has been posted so there's probably a 95% results-oriented chance that it leads to a call and a loss....but in the grand scheme, unless your villain has been playing like a total rock (which is rare in HU play), he could VERY easily be hold TJ-TK; 66-88; or even a chance at fluff that improved on the turn XdXd, QJ, etc. He could also be on the lower straight draw. You will still have live outs to any two pair (which would be sick unless he shows up with T9, in which you just got sucked on.....but I feel like this turn warrants a call.

[Temporary Nuts]

This is so disgustingly different depending on your opponent... shipping, calling down, and folding may all be correct depending on your opponent.

Without reads I am calling down.

[mtdesmoines]

This is so disgustingly different depending on your opponent... shipping, calling down, and folding may all be correct depending on your opponent.

Without reads I am calling down.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[rrumsey]

This is so disgustingly different depending on your opponent... shipping, calling down, and folding may all be correct depending on your opponent.

Without reads I am calling down.

+2 keep everything small until you have read IMO. If we reraise the check raise, it make turn akward and without reads we can get stuck. calling keeps everything more managable. we have showdown value, lets see a cheaper showdown

[Temporary Nuts]

+2 keep everything small until you have read IMO. If we reraise the check raise, it make turn akward and without reads we can get stuck. calling keeps everything more managable. we have showdown value, lets see a cheaper showdown

My reasoning for calling down is actually quite different. In HU check-raises are generally done 3 different ways by three different types:

1) "Tricky" man. Tricky man, despite his thoughts about himself, is pretty straight forward. He only check-raises draws and top pair, because he wants to trap you with 2 pair +. We actually want to shove against tricky man because we are usually WA/SA/SB and he's never folding, but calling him down isn't terrible.

2) Supernit. Supernit check-raises for value and can't see why anyone else would check-raise for any other reason. We want to fold against supernit, but we don't know if this guy is supernit and our hand has high enough showdown equity.

3) Manic man johnson. Manic man just check-raises and fires. He'll do it with sets, he'll do it with total air, and he'll do it with anything in between. We are better than average so let this degenerate fire away and don't give him a reason to stop by doing something silly like raising.

Calling down is really splitting the difference between the three major types and will give you the most value/info when you're not sure.

[SCS]

Smooth call CR, when he leads out on turn ship. He insta folds.

LOL! Why would you want villain to fold?

[bdc30]

Ship on flop.Imo.

level?

No, it's not a level. Have you played 50hu on ftp? Do you know how many times the guy doing this has a worse ten, some kind of retarded straight draw, etc etc? If op had just bet/shoved I wouldn't have had any problem with it.

Some more details on the villain would be nice, but in general I'll go broke on this flop.

As played though calling down is fine too.

[SwolyswoND]

You think a Villain is calling a $30+ overshove in a $13 pot with less than TPTK? If so he's an uberdonk, but that hardly makes it the correct play.

[Sick Boy]

You think a Villain is calling a $30+ overshove in a $13 pot with less than TPTK?

Yes. It happens every day. It's a beautiful thing.

[XXEddie]

I'm 3betting the flop with the intention of getting it in ASAP.

This is HEADS UP people. The c/r from villain could be 100 things. 87 of which we are beating right now.

[SwolyswoND]

It's like some of you people don't understand that a call is not always because we are scared or think we are behind.

I'm well aware that this is heads up, and that we have basically the nuts right now. I freaking know that.

The reason you call is to let villain barrel the turn with his weaker holdings. There are very few draws on this flop, why do you need to get it in now? Let him triple barrel T8/TJ/TQ. Are you that scared of a three-to-five outer? You are not maximizing your value when you 3bet this flop and let villain dump his A5 or 56 or whatever.

If we're oop and we led and got raised, then I 3bet it every time. In position, this is like the world's easiest call and let villain bet into you on the turn.

[MNmiracleCJS]

No, it's not a level. Have you played 50hu on ftp? Do you know how many times the guy doing this has a worse ten, some kind of retarded straight draw, etc etc? If op had just bet/shoved I wouldn't have had any problem with it.

Some more details on the villain would be nice, but in general I'll go broke on this flop.

As played though calling down is fine too.

Not much detail on villain he had just sat down with his "this is all that's left of my bankrool let's try to tilt double it" stack of like $41.35 (which made me drool of course)

FWIW I kinda followed swoly's thinking on this one I called the flop (obv) and shipped the turn.

He had T5cc for two purr and I bricked the river.

I know some will say I only posted this hand because I lost, but I was really just looking for input on how to play the hand differently. I dont care that i lost the pot but i was curious about my line.

[Sick Boy]

It's like some of you people don't understand that a call is not always because we are scared or think we are behind.

I'm well aware that this is heads up, and that we have basically the nuts right now. I freaking know that.

The reason you call is to let villain barrel the turn with his weaker holdings. There are very few draws on this flop, why do you need to get it in now? Let him triple barrel T8/TJ/TQ. Are you that scared of a three-to-five outer? You are not maximizing your value when you 3bet this flop and let villain dump his A5 or 56 or whatever.

If we're oop and we led and got raised, then I 3bet it every time. In position, this is like the world's easiest call and let villain bet into you on the turn.

Calm down dude.

Let me ask you this, why would you want to slowplay this hand and let some scare cards pop off that will either kill action or beat you when you have the oppurtunity to get it all in on the flop as a 3 to 1 favourite?

Explain.

[Temporary Nuts]

Calm down dude.

Let me ask you this, why would you want to slowplay this hand and let some scare cards pop off that will either kill action or beat you when you have the oppurtunity to get it all in on the flop as a 3 to 1 favourite?

Explain.

First of all, you have no idea if we're a favorite or not, or even how much of a favorite we are when we are indeed the favorite. We will be a good portion of the time, but not every time.

You call down to keep the air firing. It is ridiculously rare that a player check-raises then stops firing bullets when called. You don't have to worry about scare cards at all.

Also, LOL on the part of the argument that a card could come that "beats us" if we call, but at the same time we are trying to get stacks in... if that card comes it's coming and there's nothing you can do about it.

edit: Sorry if this sounds abrasive, that's just cuz i'm an *******

[SwolyswoND]

Calm down dude.

Let me ask you this, why would you want to slowplay this hand and let some scare cards pop off that will either kill action or beat you when you have the oppurtunity to get it all in on the flop as a 3 to 1 favourite?

Explain.

Temp basically covered it already.

If you raise/get it in on the flop, yes sometimes you will be way ahead, but most hands that get it all in on a dry flop like this will have one pair crushed. This line, however, definitely fold out the opponent's air or weak one pair hands.

As TN said, he is always betting the turn after you flat his c/r (or if he doesn't it's because he had air and gave up, meaning a flop raise would've folded him anyway). This line extracts more value out of the bottom half or so of his range.

And TN also nailed the "killing action" thing. There is literally no turn card that is going to kill action here - it's not a wet flop, and you also contradict yourself by "being scared of being drawn out on the turn" but still wanting to get it in on the flop.

Pretty much, I could've just did a +1 to TN's post, but I wanted to hammer this point home, because I feel way too many people take Sick Boy's kind of line here, and forgive me for being brash, but it's just flat out wrong. There are many situations in poker which are several viable lines and alternate theories can at least be intelligently debated. This is not one of them.

If you don't believe me Sick Boy, come up with a range that villain would be willing to get it in on this flop with, and then stove your equity against that range. It's not going to be anywhere near as good as you think.