Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 I want to be a tournament poker player. Ive always had a knack for games and thier structures. Ive been a 7 time state chess champion before I was 17, travelled all over the world for that game. Switched to a card game called "Magic the Gathering" won a couple state and regional tournaments. Played alot of Video games that were competitive and won alot of money and at a couple points was even nationally sponsored by major companies in the gaming industry. Ive been playing poker for about 3 years now, my main game is No limit hold'em. Im 24 years old and have a good paying steady job that allows me to head up to our local casino maybe twice a month to play Limit. 2-4 are the bets. Ok enough about my background, what Ive been doing to help my poker skills, is playing in a weekly game with a couple friends. (Game has become pretty big, and I tend to win alot of the times (winner take all. ) ) . Ive read phill hellmuths book recently and suprisingly it helped alot .. it was also the first poker book I had read. I was crushing the home games with it, winning 500 dollars+ every friday night. Then something happened, I read Super system and havent been able to win since. Can someone explain this to me? It has been around 8-9 weeks since ive won a game. I make it to the showdown, but my reads are incorrect and I tend to play more trash hands since reading Doyles book. It seemed my play was alot more solid with Hellmuths book. This is also my first time here on this site so I have a ton of questions, but im rambling and will come back to them later on. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
Eclypse 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 I think what has happened here is that you were using a style that matched-up well against your opponents, then you changed to a style that didn’t.If your opponents are somewhat conservative, then Doyle’s style should work pretty well, but if your opponents are a bit reckless, or fairly loose, then the Hellmuth style is going to be better. The trick is to know which style to use against which opponents. Link to post Share on other sites
Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 Thats what I was thinking too. But recently I flew to vegas and competed in the 4 Queens poker classic, no limit and I did pretty well, but when talking to the players about the books to read, everyone was telling me Hellmuths books are garbage. Link to post Share on other sites
tekn0wledg 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Well, for one you should never expect to win everytime, it's just not feasible. As some of the pros have stated, if you are winning everytime, you are not playing perfect poker. I know it sounds weird, but true :)Anyway, you have to know your own style for one. Each poker book I read I try to take an aspect or two from it that I feel would accentuate my style of play. In addition, you can't take these books as the bible.Since you mentioned Super System, I think it's important to mention the 'trash' hands that you are playing might not be played at the right times. Remember position is golden and the right circumstances to play hands are as well. Make sure your pot odds are sufficient to give you the odds to draw out when you hit a draw, otherwise get out of the hand. Alot of things add up. Link to post Share on other sites
deadlysyns 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Books only get you so far. I have yet to read a single Poker book. Get experience by playing low buyin tourneys online tournaments. You can experiment different strategies without risking too much money.Get an account on Paradise Poker they have buyin tourneys that range between $1 dollar to $30 bucks every hour. Depending what time of the day theres no more than 500 players playing in these tourneys. If you have any specific questions just ask here and people here will generally answer them fairly quickly.-Regards Link to post Share on other sites
Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 I think thats what Im going to start doing, but I dont want to get in the habit of playing online tourneys and neglecting brick and mortar tournys. Another question, I think where im really struggling is learning "pot odds" "drawing odd's" .. Is there any real good books or net sites I can learn about this more? It seems to be a crucial aspect in good play, and I just dont think I have it down yet ... Link to post Share on other sites
Spidurman 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 If you want to be a good player it takes a combination of discipline, hard work, and some natural ability.Be thinking about poker - what to do in situations that you have seen in the past and theoretical ones. The less 'original' thought you have to do at the table, the better. If you learn from reading, I'd read about poker as much as possible - books, articles (Daniel's cardplayer articles are a great starting point if you are here), and forums. Discuss poker - either by posting your hands or posting about other hands that are here - this will help your thought process develop. And above all else - play poker. Play to win and to work on one or two skills each session. Second set of thoughts:If you are playing limit cash games and no limit tournaments, you probably aren't being optimal (short-term). Pick one and work on it. The rhythms of limit and no-limit are radically different. Assuming you want to be a NL HE tourney specialist, I'd play online SNGs and MTTs - I recommend pokerstars, its a good and balanced structure, and a very beatable game. As I am sure you are aware, the long money in a tournament is at the top, so you will need to get expertise (feel is the only way to get it really) in the unique vagarities of tournament play - increasing blinds, playing shorthanded, bubble play, and playing through the money rounds - among others.Part 3 - Specific booksCheck out Dan Harrington's new 2+2 book ;)Also remember that no poker book is an absolute must read, nor will any book teach you how to truly play. The psychological factors and the sheer number of nuances make any hard/fast rules that a book could give irrelevant and inaccurate. Link to post Share on other sites
ErikM 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 I agree with all of the previous posts but I would like to make another point as well.You want to be sure that you have a good solid understanding of the game theory before reading Hellmuth and Brunsons book.Those two book in particular are very stylistic in nature (Doyles personal style and Hellmuths personal style).I think Hellmuths book stinks but thats just my opinion. I think Super System (Doyles sections anyway) is a really good book BUT only as it pertains to cash ring games (not tournements), high stakes No-Limit Hold-em, and only when you can quite literally afford to lose your first buy-in within the first few hands and buy back in.His whole message is that he is going to come into a game and create a table image of a super-aggressive player so he can strategically gear down and get big hands paid off later.My advice for what it is worth is to read:Theory of Poker which I think %99.9 of the poker community will agree is a must read for any serious player. It is dry, but full of lots of facts. Specifically, statistcal facts as well as theory that is widley accepted by most if not all pros as facts. Covers pot odds, effective odds, and implied odds in full detailNext read Hold em poker for advanced players also by Sklansky. This book will take what you learned in Theory of Poker and apply it specifically to Hold em poker.Once you have gotten through those books, you will have a new perspective from which to evaluate the information in super system and helmuths book... And it may clear up some of the theories poresented therein.The tournement poker for advanced players book by sklansky focuses on how all of the previous information pertains to tourney play and introduces some new theories specifically about tournements as well.Again his books are very dry but unlike most books they do not deal with a particular style of play... they deal with the theories behind the game which allows you to understand the pro's and con's of all of the different styles you will encounter and read about.the following is a list of books that I think are all very good for different reasons, they focus on a lot of different poker related topics:Theory of PokerHold em Poker for Advanced PlayersTournament Poker for Advanced PlayerSuper SystemPsychology of PokerCaro's Book of TellsInside the Poker MindChampionship No Limit & Pot Limit Zen of PokerTao of PokerKiller Poker: HandbookHarrington on Hold em (I'm reading this one now and so far its not bad). Link to post Share on other sites
Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 Thanks a bunch to all that replied. As far as the limit ring games and NL holdem tournaments , I dont really have much choice. If I want to get casino expirience , I have to settle for limit games here in Colorado. Our friday night games are NL, because a limit game is just too boring for a home game. So , maybe I should either stick to 1 or the other, but I like doing both.Also I wasnt able to decypher the acronyms you left earlier. :-)"I'd play online SNGs and MTTs - I recommend pokerstars" What do SNG"s and MMT's mean? When I was a tournament chess player, I read alot of books, probably around 50+. So when I delve into something I want as much book smarts as possible and then I like to apply expirience to that by playing in casinos and the such. Its how I learn. Link to post Share on other sites
ErikM 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 sng = sit and goMTT = multi table tournement.You sound like me (as far as the need to read) I would def check out all those books... if you have the time patience and money. Link to post Share on other sites
Spidurman 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Thanks a bunch to all that replied. As far as the limit ring games and NL holdem tournaments , I dont really have much choice. If I want to get casino expirience , I have to settle for limit games here in Colorado. Our friday night games are NL, because a limit game is just too boring for a home game. So , maybe I should either stick to 1 or the other, but I like doing both.Also I wasnt able to decypher the acronyms you left earlier. :-)"I'd play online SNGs and MTTs - I recommend pokerstars" What do SNG"s and MMT's mean? When I was a tournament chess player, I read alot of books, probably around 50+. So when I delve into something I want as much book smarts as possible and then I like to apply expirience to that by playing in casinos and the such. Its how I learn.ok, fair enough :)Online games part - SNG = Sit n Go, one-three table tournaments that start when they fill up and pay 3-5 people. At pokerstars (where I play) - they are 9 handed to start and take under an hour. MTT = multi table tournament - what you played at 4 Queens.If you are familiar/comfortable with him from Chess - Bob Ciaffone is a well known poker author (and a good one). I also recommend starting through the twoplustwo catalog (www.twoplustwo.com - excerpts available there). Theory of Poker is a must read, its one of two books that have made a radical difference in my game (the other is a non holdem book as holdem is only a side game for me). I'd check out Dan Harrington's book (I think I mentioned that already lol). Holdem for Advanced Players is not a recommendation to be honest (based on what I know) - its geared to high-stakes limit games - and the situations presented there are not applicable to NL tournament play. Link to post Share on other sites
Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 I definitly like to read about something before I get into it, regardless what it is. I have accounts on full tilt , pokerstars, and ultimate bet, but ive never played for money online. I usually attempt to play in the free rolls and have made it to the final table once on pokers stars free roll. Is there any 1 good server that has alot of features that someone starting out might like to try? Also here's a bit of a wierd question. I make good money, but Im a little hesitant on starting a bank roll, for either online play or casino / ring games. What is the best way to start a bank roll? How much should I keep on me just to bring to the table?For these questions, lets say I make an even 45 grand a year.I was thinking maybe have 1000 dollars in my bank roll at all times just to start out at maybe a lower limit game or something. All these things tend to make me shy away for fear I may eventually lose my bank roll . Link to post Share on other sites
ErikM 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Regarding Hold-em for advanced players...It is true taht it is not gearded to tournements (Thats what Tournement Poker for advanced players is all about).It does apply to no-limit games though... with a few modifications anyways. (Specifically loosening up slightly on starting hand requirements).It's def a good follow-up to Theory of Poker, because Theory of Poker sort of relates to the theory of all Poker not just hold em. Hold em for advanced players applies the teachings to hold em (L and NL) specifically. Link to post Share on other sites
Spidurman 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 I definitly like to read about something before I get into it, regardless what it is. I have accounts on full tilt , pokerstars, and ultimate bet, but ive never played for money online. I usually attempt to play in the free rolls and have made it to the final table once on pokers stars free roll. Is there any 1 good server that has alot of features that someone starting out might like to try? Also here's a bit of a wierd question. I make good money, but Im a little hesitant on starting a bank roll, for either online play or casino / ring games. What is the best way to start a bank roll? How much should I keep on me just to bring to the table?For these questions, lets say I make an even 45 grand a year.I was thinking maybe have 1000 dollars in my bank roll at all times just to start out at maybe a lower limit game or something. All these things tend to make me shy away for fear I may eventually lose my bank roll .If you are tentative - I would make a minimal ($50) deposit at one site and try the low limit stuff. If you lose it but think there is long-term money to be made and you enjoy it, reload. If not, very good That is roughly what I did back when starting out online. Link to post Share on other sites
ErikM 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 But whatever you do... don't let your significant other play on your account!!!Bought in for 50.00 placed in the first MTT I played in had about 90.00 and change... told my GF she could play if she wanted... Currently have 1.75 in the account... :cry: Link to post Share on other sites
Chaserjim 0 Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 Thanks for all your advise guys. Most of the questions I asked were answered in other forums, so I wont waste any more of your time Link to post Share on other sites
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