24 replies to this topic

[csabo17]

Ok, lets say your on the bb with 7 8 And someone in middle to late position raises. U call the bet and 2-3 people take the flop of 2 6 8 ...Your first to act, do you come out betting your top pair here? My reasoning would be a lot of people will raise preflop with a bit less better rank than in no limit. Such as AK AQ AJ KJ KQ or even ace or king suited. If you bet and the middle man smooth calls, and original raisers raises, you call this will get middle man out for the turn and his 3 bets are now in the pot. But do you continue with your check call on the turn and river if a high card comes? Or say if another low card coems do you come out betting again? Im just curious to other peoples strategy on how to bet into apre flop raiser in limit holdem when you hit.

[pkarcher]

I'm assuming you are playing limit? I would definitely bet this top pair flop, especially with only a couple of people in the pot. There are only a few hands that your preflop raiser might have that have you beat. If you get raised back by a big pocket pair you can probably fold or maybe call to see if you can improve you hand since you have backdoor straight potential. But checking is bad because giving the raiser one or two free cards is too costly. Any face card will either hit their hand or allow them to bluff you out of the pot. Throwing out a bet will put the pressure on your opponent who has likely missed their hand and force them to decide if they want to continue with probably only 6 outs to hit a big pair.

[csabo17]

I like that style as well. I play mainly 5/10 and still see all kinds of chasers. I like limit tourneys though so i assume im talking about all levels of the tournament. Ok on the other side, lets say you raise with AK, and the same flop comes. Someone come out betting, do you raise?I think the smart play is to throw one raise in here, this is because if im playing 5/10 and player 1 comes out betting and i make it 2 bets i feel as if, if i dont get re raised im going to see the river for free. My thinking is he will then put me on the big pair... and if i miss 4th street he will check and i have the option of betting here, which i dont like because im sure he has check call on. Or i can also check and see the river for free. What are your thoughts on this play?

[Smasharoo]

Checkraise the flop.Pre-flop raisers nearly allways autobet any flop. Much more often than they raise a bet out of the BB who could have any sort of funky hand. I'm not raising this flop on the buttin with AK, but I''m definately betting it if it's checked to me.A checkraise also gives you some information here. A three-bet on this flop ussually indicates a better hand than a raise would from a late position player. A raise after you bet out could bea flush draw, or TT or even sometimes AK. Are you going to three-bet a raise? Are you going to bet into the raiser if the turn is a 3?Also if the pf raiser is last to act there's the chance you can force the middle player to call two cold or lay down overcards here which is good for you. Betting into him and having him raised by the PF raiser likely keeps him in the pot as he callse one then only has to call one again.You'd like to have this hand heads up against two overcards, not three ways.

[pkarcher]

Smasharoo makes a good point too. I think it depends on the type of player you are against. If it is an agressive player who will automatically bet then the check raise probably works best. If you are against someone more passive who will take a free card then betting the flop, as I suggested, is best.

[Smasharoo]

Maybe we play in diffrent games, but I think I've seen a pre-flop raiser in late position not bet on a flop checked to him maybe once in about a year.Does it happen often in the games you play that someone will raise with AQ, say and then check it all the way around on the flop if they are acting late in the hand?This isn't a sarcastic thing, I'm curious if you see it a lot.

[csabo17]

No im with you on that, and now that i think about it i totally agree. I like the check raise here. Knowing they will come out betting, and more than likely you will get re raised with the over pair. Say they check the flop..... ( i know this is depending on tendancys) Do u bet the turn? By tendancys if you play with someone who checks monsters u may not want to, knowing they have flopped possibly a set or have the over pair. But if they bet reguardless after a flop then i think the rais ehere is good.

[pkarcher]

Smasharoo said:

Maybe we play in diffrent games, but I think I've seen a pre-flop raiser in late position not bet on a flop checked to him maybe once in about a year.Does it happen often in the games you play that someone will raise with AQ, say and then check it all the way around on the flop if they are acting late in the hand?

I see people do it. Less than %50 percent of the time, but not an insignificant amount of the time. The thing is that people will raise in late position with hands worse than AQ, then they don't want to waste more money without even an Ace high hand. I'm on the low limit tables by the way so maybe we do play in different games. The part about not having an Ace high hand comes in to play on these tables more probably because its known that every table has at least one or two people who will call to the river with Ax

[joeythep]

Bet it! If the guy has a higher pocket pair, you'll hear about it soon enough. But suppose he raised preflop with two suited high cards (spades in this case). If you check, he'd get a free card, and about one out of four times that next card is gonna be a spade. If he's on a nut flush draw, he'll probably call your bet anyway, but at least this way, if he doesn't hit it, there's more money out there. If you're going to err, err on the side of action, keeping in mind that the goal isn't just to win ONE pot, it's to take over the table. Make the others play buy your rules. If he's gonna hit a draw, make him pay for it. Giving out free cards is bad policy.

[holman3rd]

Smasharoo said:

Checkraise the flop.Pre-flop raisers nearly allways autobet any flop.  Much more often than they raise a bet out of the BB who could have any sort of funky hand.  I'm not raising this flop on the buttin with AK, but I''m definately betting it if it's checked to me.A checkraise also gives you some information here.  A three-bet on this flop ussually indicates a better hand than a raise would from a late position player.   A raise after you bet out could bea flush draw, or TT or even sometimes AK.  Are you going to three-bet a raise?  Are you going to bet into the raiser if the turn is a 3?Also if the pf raiser is last to act there's the chance you can force the middle player to call two cold or lay down overcards here which is good for you.  Betting into him and having him raised by the PF raiser likely keeps him in the pot as he callse one then only has to call one again.You'd like to have this hand heads up against two overcards, not three ways.

Agree 100% with Smash here. Nothing wakes up a low-limit game like a nice check raise. In my experience, it gets the worst chasers running for the exists. Unfortunately, the flush and straight draws will probably hang around, but you're aware of that. I'm only slowing down if a scare card falls on the turn/river, and/or I get some real resistance in terms of re-raises, especially if i lead out on the turn.

[Smasharoo]

If he's on a nut flush draw, he'll probably call your bet anywayIf he's on a flush draw he'll probably raise unless he's really not very good.

[holman3rd]

Smasharoo said:

If he's on a nut flush draw, he'll probably call your bet anywayIf he's on a flush draw he'll probably raise unless he's really not very good.

Again, gotta agree with you smash. You see, I'm very respectful. I can disagree with you on a different thread, and agree on this one. Although, I made a bad math error on the other thread

[pkarcher]

holman3rd said:

Nothing wakes up a low-limit game like a nice check raise. In my experience, it gets the worst chasers running for the exists. Unfortunately, the flush and straight draws will probably hang around, but you're aware of that. I'm only slowing down if a scare card falls on the turn/river.

I love chasers! I hate getting drawn out, but I've made so much money off of chasers that I can let it go most of the time. As far as slowing down if a scare card hits... what cards are not going to be scary here? Any spade is scary...that's eleven cards, any A,K,or Q is scary, that's nine more. J though nine may not be so scary but they may have you beat. Straight cards probably aren't worrisome, but with so few people entering the pot preflop I feel like its hard to eliminate many hands because the preflop raiser may have been trying to steal a little pot. Everyone seems to be disagreeing with me on this hand, but that just the way I see it. Be gentle.

[wrto4556]

It really matters what your relative position is. If the better is to your immediate right, then a check-raise is clearly in place here. But if he is on your left, it is probably better to bet into him. The reason being, to thin the field. You have to protect your hand. By check-raising when he is on your right, you make everyone else in the hand have to pay 2 bets. You knock out alot of draws that would have been in for a single bet (now if they call they have made a huge mistake according to the fundamental theorum of poker). If the original raiser is on your left and you bet into him, he may raise and you get the same results, you thin the field. But if you check-raise him here, when he is on your left, you build the pot...which is by far you worst option. You don't want to make the pot big enough for weak draws to be correct. comprende?

[JPWydman]

But I'm thinking I'd either...1) Bet out. Risky move because you are easily beat by any PP 9's or higher, someone playing the 8 w/ better kicker, and there are a lot of overcards that can come that will probably kick your ass.2) Check/Fold. I'm not in this pot to get TPNK. I was hoping to flop a nice flush draw/str8 draw or made hand. Since I missed both of those, continuing with my hand will probably cost me more money. If you put a diamond, or even a double backdoor str8/flush draw, I might consider chk/calling, or betting out...but I think to continue here, I'd need more than just TPNKOpinions?

[Smasharoo]

If the original raiser is on your left and you bet into him, he may raise and you get the same results, you thin the field. But if you check-raise him here, when he is on your left, you build the pot...which is by far you worst option. He's in the BB and the pre-flop raiser is in late position. Perfect time to C/R.Betting into him and being raised isn't what you want here position wise, unless the players in the middle will fold to one bet.

[Smasharoo]

But I'm thinking I'd either...1) Bet out. Risky move because you are easily beat by any PP 9's or higher, someone playing the 8 w/ better kicker, and there are a lot of overcards that can come that will probably kick your ass.2) Check/Fold. I'm not in this pot to get TPNK. I was hoping to flop a nice flush draw/str8 draw or made hand. Since I missed both of those, continuing with my hand will probably cost me more money. If you put a diamond, or even a double backdoor str8/flush draw, I might consider chk/calling, or betting out...but I think to continue here, I'd need more than just TPNKOpinions?Stop reading Lee Jones.

[wrto4556]

JPWydman said:

But I'm thinking I'd either...1) Bet out.  Risky move because you are easily beat by any PP 9's or higher, someone playing the 8 w/ better kicker, and there are a lot of overcards that can come that will probably kick your ass.2) Check/Fold.  I'm not in this pot to get TPNK.  I was hoping to flop a nice flush draw/str8 draw or made hand.  Since I missed both of those, continuing with my hand will probably cost me more money.  If you put a diamond, or even a double backdoor str8/flush draw, I might consider chk/calling, or betting out...but I think to continue here, I'd need more than just TPNKOpinions?

OK...You're crazy. :-) That's not good thinking. Texas Hold'em is a fuzzy game full of assumptions. You can't fold everything but straights and up...that's absurd.In the situation described in the first thread, a check-raise is your best option. You check, the original raiser bets, and you raise...now the guy in the middle has to call two bets cold...if he does, you make money...no matter what the outcome. If he folds, then you don't have to worry about getting drawn out on as much. So...check-raise, then bet the turn and river.

[TylerBeal]

Smash, I think your check-raise is a solid play at a higher level. 5/10 I've just witnessed to much non-sense.In my opinion the correct move here is a straight bet (only 5/10 and lower)reasons for this are....You want to let everyone know you've called the pre-flop raise with something. So if anyone is reading you properly they would have you for a made hand. But since you called a preflop raise it probably looks like you have a higher pair then 8s. But then agian this is only 5/10So you need to bet. Because if the original raiser has AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99 your behind and you dont want to be check-raising with the worst hand. Now 99 and maybe TT might not re-raise you here but I am almost 100% sure JJ and higher would re-raise your check raise. So that leaves you where? Almost for certain drawing to 2 cards. So whats that like 6%? If you just bet and he raises you can call the bet. lets be honest here. Quite frankly you have 8's its not that strong of a hand. The middle seat (chaser) if he invest himself in the pot theres no way hes going to lay it down for another 5 or 10 dollars so trying to drive him out is really like trying to keep a fat kid away from cake! it just dont happen! :PI've gotta cut it off here. I'm pooped worked all day and gotta do'er again tommorow! Sorry to cut this off I know it isnt finished but I'll check the thread tommorow and see where this conversation went!Nice posts everyone!