on the Button.Pre-flop:MP: Call 3.00, MP+1: Call 3.00, MP+2: Call 3.00, Button+1: Call 3.00, Hero: Call 3.00Flop (Board: 10:club:, 6:spade:, 6:heart:):MP: Check, MP+1: Check, MP+2: Check, Button+1: Bet 3.00, Hero: Raise 6.00MP: Fold, MP+1: Call 6.00, MP+2: Fold, Button+1: Call 6.00Turn (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check ,Hero: Bet 6.00, MP+1: Call 6.00, Button+1: Call 6.00River (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c, 3d):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check, Hero: CheckAt this point there is 9 BB in the potSo, check this river down right? Any other spots I could have done something else? (I know atleast 2 people will say fold pre-flop).
0
river check +ev?
Started by JaysonWeber, May 22 2005 04:24 AM
13 replies to this topic
#1
JaysonWeber
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 04:24 AM
Sorry for anything wrong, I have to manually do these.3/6 Limit Hold-Em at Sports.ComWeberFCP: 7:heart:, 10 on the Button.Pre-flop:MP: Call 3.00, MP+1: Call 3.00, MP+2: Call 3.00, Button+1: Call 3.00, Hero: Call 3.00Flop (Board: 10:club:, 6:spade:, 6:heart:):MP: Check, MP+1: Check, MP+2: Check, Button+1: Bet 3.00, Hero: Raise 6.00MP: Fold, MP+1: Call 6.00, MP+2: Fold, Button+1: Call 6.00Turn (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check ,Hero: Bet 6.00, MP+1: Call 6.00, Button+1: Call 6.00River (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c, 3d):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check, Hero: CheckAt this point there is 9 BB in the potSo, check this river down right? Any other spots I could have done something else? (I know atleast 2 people will say fold pre-flop).
on the Button.Pre-flop:MP: Call 3.00, MP+1: Call 3.00, MP+2: Call 3.00, Button+1: Call 3.00, Hero: Call 3.00Flop (Board: 10:club:, 6:spade:, 6:heart:):MP: Check, MP+1: Check, MP+2: Check, Button+1: Bet 3.00, Hero: Raise 6.00MP: Fold, MP+1: Call 6.00, MP+2: Fold, Button+1: Call 6.00Turn (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check ,Hero: Bet 6.00, MP+1: Call 6.00, Button+1: Call 6.00River (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c, 3d):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check, Hero: CheckAt this point there is 9 BB in the potSo, check this river down right? Any other spots I could have done something else? (I know atleast 2 people will say fold pre-flop).
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#2
amarillotg
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 07:27 PM
fold this pre-flop. 
seriously though, i like the check on the river. unless these 2 are serious donks i think your kicker may be in trouble.
seriously though, i like the check on the river. unless these 2 are serious donks i think your kicker may be in trouble.
#3
RISEorFall
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 08:42 PM
yeah, the guys bet on the flop is saying "I got a piece of this." Of course a piece could be a pocket pair, but it could easily be a 10 too. But I like the way you played it.
#4
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 11:11 PM
Point of order: A check in last position on the river can never be +EV. Your EV can be higher than a bet (if the bet is negative, and checking is zero) or lower than betting (if you have the best hand), but you cannot have a positive expected value over time by checking. Ice
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 11:44 PM
JaysonWeber said:
Sorry for anything wrong, I have to manually do these.3/6 Limit Hold-Em at Sports.ComWeberFCP: 7:heart:, 10 on the Button.Pre-flop:MP: Call 3.00, MP+1: Call 3.00, MP+2: Call 3.00, Button+1: Call 3.00, Hero: Call 3.00I fold this preflop. The only thing this hand has going for it is it's suited. There is almost no connectedness and moderate high card value. It helps that there are 4 limpers ahead of you with the blinds still to act and you have position, but I still don't think I would play it. Btw, what did the blinds do? Both limp? Only BB check?As an aside, is this type of hand a recent addition to your arsenal? If not, how did you EVER have a VP$IP of 12 when playing on UB? I don't play hands like this and I have a hard time getting a VP$IP below 15.Flop (Board: 10:club:, 6:spade:, 6:heart:):MP: Check, MP+1: Check, MP+2: Check, Button+1: Bet 3.00, Hero: Raise 6.00MP: Fold, MP+1: Call 6.00, MP+2: Fold, Button+1: Call 6.00I only like this raise because the bettor is on your immediate right so you force the field to call two cold. This cleans up single overcard draws and inside straight draws that they now won't have proper odds to chase. Continued aggression later may also get a slightly better 10 to fold here as well (like 108 or 109). With 4 overcards to your pair and a mediocre kicker, your hand is fragile even if it is the best right now.Turn (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check ,Hero: Bet 6.00, MP+1: Call 6.00, Button+1: Call 6.00I don't like betting here, but with an undercard coming I think you have to. You have a small chance of folding a slightly better 10 and good odds of getting overcards to fold here. A check/raise here from the CO would royally suck as I think you should call here and fold UI on the river. Not getting raised means noone has the 6 and probably not an overpair either.River (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c, 3d):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check, Hero: CheckChecking here is definitely best. With only top pair and a mediocre kicker that is playing you're rarely getting called by any hands that you have beat and only getting called by hands that beat you. A kicker higher than a 10 and I think betting here is best since you stand to make bets from a weaker kicker. The only hands I see making a crying call here that you beat are 77 88 or 99 or if someone crazy enough to limp with 10X X<=5At this point there is 9 BB in the potSo, check this river down right? Any other spots I could have done something else? (I know atleast 2 people will say fold pre-flop).
on the Button.Pre-flop:MP: Call 3.00, MP+1: Call 3.00, MP+2: Call 3.00, Button+1: Call 3.00, Hero: Call 3.00I fold this preflop. The only thing this hand has going for it is it's suited. There is almost no connectedness and moderate high card value. It helps that there are 4 limpers ahead of you with the blinds still to act and you have position, but I still don't think I would play it. Btw, what did the blinds do? Both limp? Only BB check?As an aside, is this type of hand a recent addition to your arsenal? If not, how did you EVER have a VP$IP of 12 when playing on UB? I don't play hands like this and I have a hard time getting a VP$IP below 15.Flop (Board: 10:club:, 6:spade:, 6:heart:):MP: Check, MP+1: Check, MP+2: Check, Button+1: Bet 3.00, Hero: Raise 6.00MP: Fold, MP+1: Call 6.00, MP+2: Fold, Button+1: Call 6.00I only like this raise because the bettor is on your immediate right so you force the field to call two cold. This cleans up single overcard draws and inside straight draws that they now won't have proper odds to chase. Continued aggression later may also get a slightly better 10 to fold here as well (like 108 or 109). With 4 overcards to your pair and a mediocre kicker, your hand is fragile even if it is the best right now.Turn (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check ,Hero: Bet 6.00, MP+1: Call 6.00, Button+1: Call 6.00I don't like betting here, but with an undercard coming I think you have to. You have a small chance of folding a slightly better 10 and good odds of getting overcards to fold here. A check/raise here from the CO would royally suck as I think you should call here and fold UI on the river. Not getting raised means noone has the 6 and probably not an overpair either.River (Board: 10c, 6s, 6h, 2c, 3d):MP+1: Check, Button+1: Check, Hero: CheckChecking here is definitely best. With only top pair and a mediocre kicker that is playing you're rarely getting called by any hands that you have beat and only getting called by hands that beat you. A kicker higher than a 10 and I think betting here is best since you stand to make bets from a weaker kicker. The only hands I see making a crying call here that you beat are 77 88 or 99 or if someone crazy enough to limp with 10X X<=5At this point there is 9 BB in the potSo, check this river down right? Any other spots I could have done something else? (I know atleast 2 people will say fold pre-flop).#6
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 11:47 PM
As for the description of the hand, I like having the pot size and an exact number of people involved in the hand at the beginning of each betting round. It makes it easier to figure out things like how many perople are left to act behind you which can matter.Zara
#7
the_stein
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 11:52 PM
wow that's weird, I would have played it EXACTLY the same, preflop to river
#8
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 12:35 AM
no, i like the pre-flop limp here. Suited semi-connector. harder to hit a straight, yeah, but huge implied odds. His raise on the flop should take away high card pair draws, so there's not much reason to worry about overcards coming, making his hand stronger. The only thing here is that you're gonna end up betting into a better 10 most of the time, but you also have fold equity if he believes you have a 6. nicely played, start to finish. if you lost to a better 10 or pp then so be it.
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 12:40 AM
RISEorFall said:
no, i like the pre-flop limp here. Suited semi-connector. harder to hit a straight, yeah, but huge implied odds. His raise on the flop should take away high card pair draws, so there's not much reason to worry about overcards coming, making his hand stronger. The only thing here is that you're gonna end up betting into a better 10 most of the time, but you also have fold equity if he believes you have a 6. nicely played, start to finish. if you lost to a better 10 or pp then so be it.
#10
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 12:41 AM
hmm sorry for the triple post, computer locked up and I guess sent it...3 times...jeez. JW or can some1 delete those?
#11
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 12:43 AM
Zarathustra said:
Is there an echo?Is there an echo?Is there an echo? ;-)Zara
#12
cdddc75
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 09:17 AM
As Ice said, the check is 0 EV. I probably check this down without any reads. With reads, I lean toward value betting.
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#13
KDawgCometh
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 09:41 AM
Okay, I play exactly the same. I'm raising the flop for two reasons, 1. becasue I have top pair and am hoping to fold out overcard hands in case one flops and 2. To see if someone has trips, as they will certainly threebet back at me.Turn: Betting is fine, no one has shown aggresion against us, so we can reasonably presume that our hand is good right now, or at least good enough of the time to make betting a good playRiver: I value bet this here, that's the only thing I do different. Again no one has shown aggression against us so a bet here is definetly worth it. YOu'd be surprised at how many Ace high hands will call this down because of the board.people, really ignore his PF action, what really matters most is the post flop action, which was correct teh whole way
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#14
JaysonWeber
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 10:39 AM
I felt at this table, I could make correct decisions post flop that this was a very profitable hand given a correct flop, Post-Flop play is more important than a strict/strict hand selection pre-flop.I have no problem straying in these situations.Regarding my 11% VP$IP on UB, As I said I was working on loosening up my game, 11% is profitable, but 15% if more profitable.I've opened up my game on the button a lot the last month or so, especially at the passive tables.
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