What Do You Think About The Fold Here.

[jaxup1985 0]

Note we were not in the money yet... had about 20 more ppl. to go. I am still in this tourney and my chip stack is still sitting at around 30k. Am I supposed to make this fold here? This guy literally just got moved to the table.... I think the fold is correct without any reads.... just kills me to fold JJ on a 6 Max. What you guys think?Full Tilt Poker Game #14487548901: $12,500 KO Guarantee (106378037), Table 144 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:35:23 ET - 2009/09/05Seat 1: kgbexpress (84,054)Seat 2: 19smoke77 (30,147)Seat 3: Jaxup1984 (35,931)Seat 4: vieve79 (25,673)Seat 5: zarmit1 (18,427)Seat 6: Cheese9 (8,285)kgbexpress antes 5019smoke77 antes 50Jaxup1984 antes 50vieve79 antes 50zarmit1 antes 50Cheese9 antes 5019smoke77 posts the small blind of 250Jaxup1984 posts the big blind of 500The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Jaxup1984 [Jd Js]vieve79 foldszarmit1 raises to 1,222Cheese9 foldskgbexpress folds19smoke77 has 15 seconds left to act19smoke77 raises to 5,000Jaxup1984 has 15 seconds left to actJaxup1984 calls 4,500zarmit1 folds*** FLOP *** [9s 9h 8s]19smoke77 has 15 seconds left to act19smoke77 bets 11,522Jaxup1984 has 15 seconds left to actJaxup1984 has requested TIMEJaxup1984 foldsUncalled bet of 11,522 returned to 19smoke7719smoke77 mucks19smoke77 wins the pot (11,522)*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 11,522 | Rake 0Board: [9s 9h 8s]Seat 1: kgbexpress (button) folded before the FlopSeat 2: 19smoke77 (small blind) collected (11,522), muckedSeat 3: Jaxup1984 (big blind) folded on the FlopSeat 4: vieve79 folded before the FlopSeat 5: zarmit1 folded before the FlopSeat 6: Cheese9 folded before the Flop

[lifelessimp 0]

Take this with a grain of salt, because I don't really play too much NL, but I hate this fold.If you're going to call this preflop, (which I think you should) why would you fold to a lead out on a great flop like this? It's very unlikely he has a 9 or a set, and I think overcards lead this often enough that you should call/push. Esp. shorthandedWith regards to bubble play, shouldn't you be more/same aggro @ bubble, as opposed to trying to fold into the money?

[Sick Boy 0]

Fold is the smart move here imo. You still have plenty of chips left behind to wait for a better spot than this and added to that (not that it REALLY matters), you're right on the bubble. There's no reason to cripple yourself here by shoving and then puking when the guy turns over Q9 or some other sick shit like that. Folding and waiting is better here imo then just being like "I have jacks and there's no overcards, im all in!"You cant win NLHE tourneys without patience.

[rrumsey 0]

marginal. Even against just say this range (which may be kind of loose):88+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+,KQo we are 53%. I mean overcards are our best friend right now but i think it could be more likely we get caught running into a lot of AA-QQ here he was shorter than us and if you are close to the money this isn't a great spot. We started the hand with a M of like 36 we fold now we still have close to 30K thats a decent stack still. I think your stacks are too close and blinds still to small for this to be a total massive overplay we just don't beat anything but overcards making a Cbet here i think i fold. Calling leaves us with like 28 behind and a pot that we are commited in so i say second best thing is to shove but i don't like it too much we only catch Cbets and that is it. I hate say this but does anyone think 4 bet preflop? I know it may not be ideal but we are getting like 1.61 to 1 odds and OOP this could in my book be a fold preflop sometimes and a raise preflop sometimes along with a mix of call it is just a tough spot all around imo

[rrumsey 0]

With regards to bubble play, shouldn't you be more/same aggro @ bubble, as opposed to trying to fold into the money?

depends on how the table playing, stacks, and blind size. Here we are decently deep but up against a similar stack size and the blinds are small enough huge bluffs don't win enough chips to make a huge difference so i say no we take this decently TAG and maybe slightly nitty let the bigstacks push the table around too much and the short stacks push on marginal hands we can wait for good spots to stack people or double up

[qnshustler 0]

Fold is the smart move here imo. You still have plenty of chips left behind to wait for a better spot than this and added to that (not that it REALLY matters), you're right on the bubble. There's no reason to cripple yourself here by shoving and then puking when the guy turns over Q9 or some other sick shit like that. Folding and waiting is better here imo then just being like "I have jacks and there's no overcards, im all in!"You cant win NLHE tourneys without patience.

So you're saying we flatted OOP prf with JJ to setmine? I could probably justify letting this go if there was an overcard but what more do you want on a flop besides a J? Shove this all day.

[rrumsey 0]

So you're saying we flatted OOP prf with JJ to setmine? I could probably justify letting this go if there was an overcard but what more do you want on a flop besides a J? Shove this all day.

what do we beat when we get called? 10's, that is it! The more i think about this 4-bet preflop seems decent, gets a lot of the 2 high card combos that are going to cbet us here out. Wait, we weren't in position postflop! u edited out your check on the flop right because you were BB, smoke was UTG +1 so you act first! Bet that flop! good flop to bet, i don't know about a shove this deep but why did you check that flop? If you check folded on that flop with J's then that is a majjjorrr leak! and this changes tyhe fold line i gave you above totally we bet and if we checked i would then like a check raise all in we get a cbet out of those combo overcards i was trying to puish out in the beginnning and we get more out of it, but dangerous line

[qnshustler 0]

what do we beat when we get called? 10's, that is it! The more i think about this 4-bet preflop seems decent, gets a lot of the 2 high card combos that are going to cbet us here out. Wait, we weren't in position postflop! u edited out your check on the flop right because you were BB, smoke was UTG +1 so you act first! Bet that flop! good flop to bet, i don't know about a shove this deep but why did you check that flop? If you check folded on that flop with J's then that is a majjjorrr leak! and this changes tyhe fold line i gave you above totally we bet and if we checked i would then like a check raise all in we get a cbet out of those combo overcards i was trying to puish out in the beginnning and we get more out of it, but dangerous line

I wish your posts were more cohesive and structured. I can't tell if you agree with what I said or are challenging me. First sentence sounds like you disagree, then at the end it looks like you're with me?

[qnshustler 0]

what do we beat when we get called? 10's, that is it! The more i think about this 4-bet preflop seems decent, gets a lot of the 2 high card combos that are going to cbet us here out. Wait, we weren't in position postflop! u edited out your check on the flop right because you were BB, smoke was UTG +1 so you act first! Bet that flop! good flop to bet, i don't know about a shove this deep but why did you check that flop? If you check folded on that flop with J's then that is a majjjorrr leak! and this changes tyhe fold line i gave you above totally we bet and if we checked i would then like a check raise all in we get a cbet out of those combo overcards i was trying to puish out in the beginnning and we get more out of it, but dangerous line

Also smoke was SB, pay attention Though this is why I ****ING HATE when people here don't convert their hands. Most of the hands I don't comment on are because I usually refuse to read unconverted hands.

[jaxup1985 0]

Sorry I didn't take the time to use a converter guys... next time I will.1. Smoke was the small blind... He was the only guy I was in position against.. your right if I check folded it would be horrible.... but he Insta pot size bet the flop.2. I called in position with Jacks becuase with no reads if I raise to what 12K... and I get RR I'm not sure if I can get away from it. My plan was to A. Hit a jack. Lol. Or more likely see if he slows down since he has to bet into a flat caller... I just feel I run into Queens or better here alot of the time.3. I feel like I still have enough chips here to do whatever I need to do... I went into this tourney telling myself I would get away from Marginal situations if I was deep. Tired of being on the losing end of too many QQ vs KK situations when I'm set to go deep.

[SCS 0]

Unless the 3better preflop is a supernit I shove preflop all day.

[qnshustler 0]

Unless the 3better preflop is a supernit I shove preflop all day.

I am definitely against shoving 70BB preflop here. You're not going to get QQ+ to fold and probably won't see TT or worse call. Depending on the villain you may get AK to call, but I don't want to flip for my tournament with 20 to the money anyway, especially when we have a stack that allows us plenty of play with those blinds.

[rrumsey 0]

i get weird in my post because it gets sketchy with this hand i would have either:A.) raised preflopB.) if id didn't raise assume villains ranges are wide enough here and pushis that more clear?Calling in SB is so sketchy with a made hand, 4-5 suited would play much better there it is a lot easier to play the hand correctly that way. I mean preflop we are ahead of everything but QQ+ so 3 hands have us crushed, everything else we are at least 55% favorite, if not 4:1 against 10's- but we fear a ton of flops why not raise pre?

[GreeneStreet 0]

i get weird in my post because it gets sketchy with this hand i would have either:A.) raised preflopB.) if id didn't raise assume villains ranges are wide enough here and pushis that more clear?Calling in SB is so sketchy with a made hand, 4-5 suited would play much better there it is a lot easier to play the hand correctly that way. I mean preflop we are ahead of everything but QQ+ so 3 hands have us crushed, everything else we are at least 55% favorite, if not 4:1 against 10's- but we fear a ton of flops why not raise pre?

I agree with the rationale for raising pre. It feels like you are straddling a line with your play here, which may be a result of playing on the bubble. You want to play your good hands, but are then backing off when pushed. Go tight/aggressive here and you're less likely to get pushed off pots you should be winning. Either you fold preflop, which may be hard to do with JJ (although I find that people often overplay JJ), or you raise and force people into a hard decision. If you get re-raised, you aren't at the point of being pot-committed and can fold the hand and still work your way into the money. All that being said, considering the context when he bet the pot on the flop, the fold was probably the right move, though playing hands like this too often can become a leak.

[Mercury69 3]

As played, I think I'm making the big fold here. When you're looking at a raise and a re-raise PF, JJ isn't looking like the boss hand. That being said, I think I'm also playing this cautious before the flop also. I really get the sense that it's QQ+. You cannot logically put the guy on AK here. If that's what he has and he's got the balls to r/r pf and then barrel a nice bet on the flop, maybe he deserves to win the hand. If you fold, you still have 30K behind.