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#1 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 06:44 AM

Yeah. I know, Blends are for wimps. Good old Kentucky Bourbon is just going to have to suffice for now on.

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August 21, 2009The Honorable Kenny MacAskill, MSPCabinet Secretary for JusticeScottish GovernmentSt. Andrew's HouseRegent RoadEdinburgh, Scotland, United KingdomEH13DGDear Mr. Secretary:Over the years I have been a prosecutor, and recently as the Director of the FBI, I have made it a practice not to comment on the actions of other prosecutors, since only the prosecutor handling the case has all the facts and the law before him in reaching the appropriate decision.Your decision to release Megrahi causes me to abandon that practice in this case. I do so because I am familiar with the facts, and the law, having been the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the investigation and indictment of Megrahi in 1991. And I do so because I am outraged at your decision, blithely defended on the grounds of "compassion."Your action in releasing Megrahi is as inexplicable as it is detrimental to the cause of justice. Indeed your action makes a mockery of the rule of law. Your action gives comfort to terrorists around the world who now believe that regardless of the quality of the investigation, the conviction by jury after the defendant is given all due process, and sentence appropriate to the crime, the terrorist will be freed by one man's exercise of "compassion." Your action rewards a terrorist even though he never admitted to his role in this act of mass murder and even though neither he nor the government of Libya ever disclosed the names and roles of others who were responsible.Your action makes a mockery of the emotions, passions and pathos of all those affected by the Lockerbie tragedy: the medical personnel who first faced the horror of 270 bodies strewn in the fields around Lockerbie, and in the town of Lockerbie itself; the hundreds of volunteers who walked the fields of Lockerbie to retrieve any piece of debris related to the breakup of the plane; the hundreds of FBI agents and Scottish police who undertook an unprecedented global investigation to identify those responsible; the prosecutors who worked for years--in some cases a full career--to see justice done.But most importantly, your action makes a mockery of the grief of the families who lost their own on December 21, 1988. You could not have spent much time with the families, certainly not as much time as others involved in the investigation and prosecution. You could not have visited the small wooden warehouse where the personal items of those who perished were gathered for identification--the single sneaker belonging to a teenager; the Syracuse sweatshirt never again to be worn by a college student returning home for the holidays; the toys in a suitcase of a businessman looking forward to spending Christmas with his wife and children.You apparently made this decision without regard to the views of your partners in the investigation and prosecution of those responsible for the Lockerbie tragedy. Although the FBI and Scottish police, and prosecutors in both countries, worked exceptionally closely to hold those responsible accountable, you never once sought our opinion, preferring to keep your own counsel and hiding behind opaque references to "the need for compassion."You have given the family members of those who died continued grief and frustration. You have given those who sought to assure that the persons responsible would be held accountable the back of your hand. You have given Megrahi a "jubilant welcome" in Tripoli, according to the reporting. Where, I ask, is the justice?Sincerely yours,Robert S. Mueller, IIIDirector


#2 sKIjaKuDa

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:15 AM

View PostPot Odds RAC, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

Yeah. I know, Blends are for wimps. Good old Kentucky Bourbon is just going to have to suffice for now on.
I didn't know the details but after reading that, it doesn't seem to matter and I agree. No more Haggis for me.
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#3 LongLiveYorke

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:29 AM

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.

#4 Sal Paradise

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:33 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.
pussy
QUOTE (Tactical Bear @ Monday, June 15th, 2009, 9:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anybody who dies of Swine Flu is just a faggot.

#5 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:47 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.
How about this ****ing monster shows a single modicum of remorse for his actions or allow input from the hundreds upon hundreds of families affected by his murders before one single Scottish Judge makes the unilateral decision to release the prick to a hero's welcome back home?He should have died in Prison.Or worse.

#6 sKIjaKuDa

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 09:18 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.
Dying in Prison with no fanfare and hugs and kisses is better than dying after a hero's welcome.Christian's have been known to let a few people suffer in their time as well so don't go all holy on us.He did the crime, he deserve's the time. No gifts,No fresh air,No hugs,No kisses,No flags,Nothing.Death.
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#7 Balloon guy

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 09:21 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 8:29 AM, said:

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.
It is completely within Christianity to allow this man to die in prison, or even be killed by the state.The direction the Bible gives is that as an individual I am to forgive, but it is completely acceptable that the state conduct itself in a manner that serves the common good. Which is why I am also commanded to obey those placed in authority above me and render unto Ceaser etc. So if one of my family members died the horrible deaths by the hands of this piece of trash, I am commanded to forgive him personally since I have also been forgiven, but that doesn't mean you walk around and let everyone who does evil get away with it just because they are sick.Having said that I hope the results are as you stated and this action results in good. I do not expect it too, but I am not saying it can't. I would be more willing to believe that this man will strap on a bomb and take a few more people with him if he is given the chance.
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#8 LongLiveYorke

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:07 AM

To be clear, I don't think that releasing this guy was the right thing to do, but I certainly sympathize with the sentiment. I think we could have made him comfortable in jail and held on to our moral integrity and been all right (by we, I don't mean we, I mean the Scots, but I like saying "we"). But to have so much outrage over his release is a lot of overkill. It's just people trying to paint the Scottish justice minister as a scapegoat for the atrocities that this man committed. I think the would would be a better place if people were a bit less vengeful and, like the minister, were compassionate to a fault.Also, I'm confused by the charges that the release was done for "political" reasons. It seems that the release will most likely end the career of the minister and possibly may bring about a change in Scottish government. It is a horrible move politically and will only make those involved incredibly unpopular. No, this is only about morality, maybe misplaced morality, but morality none the less.

#9 Sal Paradise

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:14 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 2:07 PM, said:

To be clear, I don't think that releasing this guy was the right thing to do, but I certainly sympathize with the sentiment. I think we could have made him comfortable in jail and held on to our moral integrity and been all right (by we, I don't mean we, I mean the Scots, but I like saying "we"). But to have so much outrage over his release is a lot of overkill. It's just people trying to paint the Scottish justice minister as a scapegoat for the atrocities that this man committed. I think the would would be a better place if people were a bit less vengeful and, like the minister, were compassionate to a fault.Also, I'm confused by the charges that the release was done for "political" reasons. It seems that the release will most likely end the career of the minister and possibly may bring about a change in Scottish government. It is a horrible move politically and will only make those involved incredibly unpopular. No, this is only about morality, maybe misplaced morality, but morality none the less.
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QUOTE (Tactical Bear @ Monday, June 15th, 2009, 9:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anybody who dies of Swine Flu is just a faggot.

#10 LongLiveYorke

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:18 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 1:21 PM, said:

It is completely within Christianity to allow this man to die in prison, or even be killed by the state.The direction the Bible gives is that as an individual I am to forgive, but it is completely acceptable that the state conduct itself in a manner that serves the common good. Which is why I am also commanded to obey those placed in authority above me and render unto Ceaser etc.
Of course, you have studied Christianity a lot more than I have, but I don't fully agree with your interpretation here.To me, the Ceaser quote isn't saying that we should obey those in authority above us. He was asked whether it was okay to pay taxes to Ceasar and if doing so would be putting the Emperor above God. Jesus' response is, more or less, "If Ceasar wants you to give him material things, then give him material things. If he's going to print coins with his face on them, give them out, decree that they have value, and then demand that we give them back to him, then do so. They only have value in the eyes of Ceasar, not in the eyes of God. They are rocks. If he wants rocks, give him rocks. But give your love and your devotion to God and your fellow man."I think, in general, Jesus doesn't want us to be obedient to a government nor does he want us to be rebellious. He didn't see politics as the way to bettering the would. To him, all politics was local. We make the world better by treating those around us with love, respect, and compassion. We are generous to our friends and even more so to our enemies. And, if doing so means that we remain poor and humble, then so be it, for ours is the kingdom of heaven.

#11 sKIjaKuDa

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:32 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 2:18 PM, said:

Of course, you have studied Christianity a lot more than I have, but I don't fully agree with your interpretation here.To me, the Ceaser quote isn't saying that we should obey those in authority above us. He was asked whether it was okay to pay taxes to Ceasar and if doing so would be putting the Emperor above God. Jesus' response is, more or less, "If Ceasar wants you to give him material things, then give him material things. If he's going to print coins with his face on them, give them out, decree that they have value, and then demand that we give them back to him, then do so. They only have value in the eyes of Ceasar, not in the eyes of God. They are rocks. If he wants rocks, give him rocks. But give your love and your devotion to God and your fellow man."I think, in general, Jesus doesn't want us to be obedient to a government nor does he want us to be rebellious. He didn't see politics as the way to bettering the would. To him, all politics was local. We make the world better by treating those around us with love, respect, and compassion. We are generous to our friends and even more so to our enemies. And, if doing so means that we remain poor and humble, then so be it, for ours is the kingdom of heaven.
Bit of a side-bar but I think everyone would benefit from reading this:http://www.chapters...... not great%27It may show to you that there are many sides to the good book(s).
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#12 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:37 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 2:07 PM, said:

To be clear, I don't think that releasing this guy was the right thing to do, but I certainly sympathize with the sentiment. I think we could have made him comfortable in jail and held on to our moral integrity and been all right (by we, I don't mean we, I mean the Scots, but I like saying "we"). But to have so much outrage over his release is a lot of overkill. It's just people trying to paint the Scottish justice minister as a scapegoat for the atrocities that this man committed. I think the would would be a better place if people were a bit less vengeful and, like the minister, were compassionate to a fault.Also, I'm confused by the charges that the release was done for "political" reasons. It seems that the release will most likely end the career of the minister and possibly may bring about a change in Scottish government. It is a horrible move politically and will only make those involved incredibly unpopular. No, this is only about morality, maybe misplaced morality, but morality none the less.
From where I am sitting, the release was an act of arrogance, not compassion. This Judge decided on his own that he knew what was "Right". He didn't get any international input, nor input from victims' families, nor (apparently) any other input. He sounds defiant in his interviews on this matter and comes off as an arrogant prick.

#13 Balloon guy

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:39 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Of course, you have studied Christianity a lot more than I have, but I don't fully agree with your interpretation here.To me, the Ceaser quote isn't saying that we should obey those in authority above us. He was asked whether it was okay to pay taxes to Ceasar and if doing so would be putting the Emperor above God. Jesus' response is, more or less, "If Ceasar wants you to give him material things, then give him material things. If he's going to print coins with his face on them, give them out, decree that they have value, and then demand that we give them back to him, then do so. They only have value in the eyes of Ceasar, not in the eyes of God. They are rocks. If he wants rocks, give him rocks. But give your love and your devotion to God and your fellow man."I think, in general, Jesus doesn't want us to be obedient to a government nor does he want us to be rebellious. He didn't see politics as the way to bettering the would. To him, all politics was local. We make the world better by treating those around us with love, respect, and compassion. We are generous to our friends and even more so to our enemies. And, if doing so means that we remain poor and humble, then so be it, for ours is the kingdom of heaven.
I think you have a very good heart and as such see things the way you do.But the Bible is clear that the secular governments placed above us are to be obeyed except in the cases where they directly contradict the Bible. This can be viewed alongside the commands that tell a slave to be a good slave, a master a good master, a business owner a fair and honest one etc. Because the temporal things of this world are not the goals we seek. The reason that Christ was generally non-political was because politics, governments, man made rules, are of such small relevance to eternity. It would be like me telling you that you have to spend one day in your apartment, then tomorrow you get to spend the rest of your life in Maui in a mansion on the beach with free food and a particle accelerator in the front yard...you wouldn't place a lot of value on the idea of shampooing the carpet, but at the same time, you shouldn't be a person who trashes the apartment just because you can. So if you tidied up before you left, turned down the thermostat for the next person etc, it speaks to your character, to your appreciation to your future reward, because it doesn't add one thing to where you are going.So we can obey the ruling authorities who have a job to maintain the peace for everyone of its subjects, and the rules they make are not to be ignorant of the need for common good and protection of innocent, hence the acceptable behavior of putting a person into jail for the rest of their life for killing people.Mercy from an indiviual perspective is noble, from a perspective of being a ruler who is responsible for the entire populace it is not practical, and as such it is not contridictory to the command to 'turn the other cheek'. A rular has to think about not only this one person, but also all the other people around him, the future actions, and the reason for his punishment. As an individual, I can forgive and allow what happens to him to happen because there are consequenses for all our actions.
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#14 Balloon guy

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:42 AM

View PostsKIjaKuDa, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

Bit of a side-bar but I think everyone would benefit from reading this:http://www.chapters...... not great%27It may show to you that there are many sides to the good book(s).
Edited for being a little mean.I think Hitchens makes a lot of poorly thought our arguments, and as such feel his book is nothing more than a way to make money for himself on the current trend of books following the really foolish book/movie DaVinci Code.
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#15 slink

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:24 AM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 8:29 AM, said:

The guy's going to die a painful death from pancreatic cancer. Nothing's going to stop that. If he's in jail at the time or elsewhere, it doesn't really matter. His sentence has been given down by god. It is final, and no one can take that back.I find the notion of giving this man unspeakable compassion to be quite touching. His being or not being in jail for a few months isn't going to bring anyone back, isn't going to make terrorists more or less likely to commit their atrocities, it isn't going to make things "right" in any way. It only shows that people are capable of turning the other cheek, of showing not forgiveness, for his actions will never be forgiven, but human decency, even in the face of the greatest evil. I also find it deeply hypocritical for any Christian to question the release of this prisoner. Releasing this man is basically the central tenet of Christ's teachings.
Wasn't he give a life sentence?Isn't he supposed to die in prison?
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#16 LongLiveYorke

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:43 AM

View Postslink, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 3:24 PM, said:

Wasn't he give a life sentence?Isn't he supposed to die in prison?
In Scotland, they have something called a "compassionate release" where, when a prisoner is certain to die, they will release him back to his family so he can die with them. This is what happened here.

#17 sKIjaKuDa

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:57 AM

View PostBalloon guy, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 2:42 PM, said:

Edited for being a little mean.I think Hitchens makes a lot of poorly thought our arguments, and as such feel his book is nothing more than a way to make money for himself on the current trend of books following the really foolish book/movie DaVinci Code.
I will agree as I am not an Atheist nor a Theologist but I found it an interesting read regardless.You wouldn't believe the abuse I got on the subway here in Toronto for reading this book. It got to the point that I would have to read it with the cover folded over the seam so as to disguise the name unless someone read over my shoulder. They would then read the top of the page which said the title and still attack me. It was an equal opportunity book as in that it made anybody who believed in God to feel that I was making an affront on him/her/it.I found it interesting and there is no book you can read that seems to discuss religion in any way without some bias so I took it as it was and found it to be a very interesting read.I still as a non-religious person find it absolutely mind boggling that the three major religions cannot find some sort of middle ground. God does not write books. Man writes books.And therefore if there is a God, therein lies his folly/wisdom/way.Cheers,
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#18 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:06 PM

View PostLongLiveYorke, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 3:43 PM, said:

In Scotland, they have something called a "compassionate release" where, when a prisoner is certain to die, they will release him back to his family so he can die with them. This is what happened here.
Sure. I'd guess that just about every country has some sort of "Compassionate Release" ability. However, it is by no means a "required" action. Even in the British/Scottist systems it is pretty rare to set someone free for compassionate release.

Quote

Compassionate release is an established feature of the British and Scottish judicial systems when a prisoner is near death. According to officials, there have been 30 requests for release on compassionate grounds in Scotland over the last decade, 23 of which were approved.
Three requests per year and only about two per year actually granted.In a case where the prisoner has shown no remorse, in fact he was still denying his role and appealing his conviction but agreed to drop his appeals so he could be released, never worked with authorities to give evidence or testimony against co-conspirators, and had only served a fraction of his sentence for killing hundreds of people, I'd say that this is a case where "compassion" might have been misplaced.Of the tens of thousands of people in prison in the UK you're going to grant compassionate release to the man convicted of killing hundreds of people? Without even a single word of debate?!?Is this REALLY one of the two requests per year that you are going to actually grant?!?Then you have hints that this may have been an "Oil for Release" deal:

Quote

Libyan officials have claimed al-Megrahi's fate had formed part of trade talks in recent years, while the country's leader Moammar Gadhafi on Friday thanked British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Queen Elizabeth II for "encouraging the Scottish government" to take their decision
I'll be using "Freedom Tape" from now on.

#19 Mercury69

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:20 PM

Just say No to blends. Unless you're mixing...Teacher's is a decent blend, actually. 40% of it is from a single distillery. It makes a fine Rusty Nail.
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#20 QED

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 02:05 PM

View PostPot Odds RAC, on Monday, August 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

From where I am sitting, the release was an act of arrogance, not compassion. This Judge decided on his own that he knew what was "Right". He didn't get any international input, nor input from victims' families, nor (apparently) any other input. He sounds defiant in his interviews on this matter and comes off as an arrogant prick.
I don't agree with the release really but it was the Scottish Justice Secretary who made the decision not a judge. I also believe he claims to have talked to families of the victims before hand.




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