Standard?

[qnshustler 0]

Over 2K entrants, about 440 left at this point, 370 get paid. Literally villain's first hand at table. Should I have taken free card on turn or was this standard? Don't want to hear it about hiding the results. Also, FML.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 125 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comsaw flop | saw showdownUTG (t30816)UTG+1 (t26777)MP1 (t9862)MP2 (t42770)Hero (MP3) (t21785)CO (t31801)Button (t14800)SB (t14360)BB (t66061)Hero's M: 8.30Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A , J :heart:UTG calls t1000, UTG+1 calls t1000, 2 folds, Hero bets t3800, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls t2800Flop: (t11225) 10 , 6 , 2 (2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t8500, UTG+1 calls t8500Turn: (t28225) Q (2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t9360 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t9360River: (t46945) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t46945Results:UTG+1 had J , 10 (one pair, tens).Hero had A , J (high card, Ace).Outcome: UTG+1 won t46945

[XXEddie 0]

Dont post results. It results in results biased posted.I shove flop. Not a lot of hands will call the 8.5k and then fold on the turn for 9k more. Try to always avoid akwardly small shoves on flop/turn/river and just over shove the previous street. As played though I think you should just take the free card as youre never getting a fold here and almost never are ahead.

[cdipierr 0]

Dont post results. It results in results biased posted.I shove flop. Not a lot of hands will call the 8.5k and then fold on the turn for 9k more. Try to always avoid akwardly small shoves on flop/turn/river and just over shove the previous street. As played though I think you should just take the free card as youre never getting a fold here and almost never are ahead.

+1

[Sick Boy 0]

All in preflop imho. As played, (which is also ok), shove flop.

[Shark527 0]

I agree with shoving pre. Raising puts you in an akward spot on the flop if you miss.

[qnshustler 0]

I agree that I should have taken the free card on the turn, in fact it seems very obvious in hindsight. But shoving the flop I'm not so sure about. Is the overshove there really that much better than a more standard cbet? And I definitely disagree with shoving prf. At this point in the tourny with ~21BB's and an M of 8.3 is that really the best move? I think it's pretty bad, not terrible, but pretty bad. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[CoolHandKai 0]

I agree with gnshustler, shoving pre flop is pretty bad play - sure you're going to collect some small pots here and there, but eventually you're going to run into a hand that has you crushed. Usually this costs more chips than what you've gained by shoving marginal hands earlier on.Shoving on the flop to end the hand or to have outs in case of a call is reasonable, so is checking behind and so is the line you took. All three have merits. As played, you were committed on the turn anyway, so might as well put the money in while you still have outs to win the hand (imho, ymmv).

[rbakken2504 0]

Well there are a couple of things that I see about this hand in different scenarios:1.) Preflop- you have two limpers in front of you, but more importantly the SB and button have perfect reshove stacks, because of this I'd probably just be folding this preflop, but I dont mind the raise you made either...just another vantage point on it...but like the two previous to me, shoving is a horrible play preflop.2.) Flop- Because making a normal c-bet leaves you with a stack that you cant use for FE on the turn, you either should be shoving or checking here. The only time you'd make a normal c-bet here is when you hit the flop and try to squeeze out more value by letting the villain "bleed" his chips away.

[cdipierr 0]

The bet size on the flop isn't great because as others have pointed out, you have no FE on the turn and you can't fold if you miss the turn (your stack is too small at that point). Given this, try to win it on the flop with a shove.Folding preflop is awful.

[DonkSlayer 1]

We have to shove preflop...it may seem like a bit much, but we're late enough in the table that we're not at a ton of risk of someone waking up behind us with a monster, and stacks are too awkward after the flop.I actually think flatting here is better than just raising, and folding isn't too far behind...stacks are just so awkward. Reason I think flatting is better than raising is because if you hit a board like this or spike top pair, you're likely ahead of the limpers range and can get the money in, and you may provoke a light shove from someone behind you since you're underrepping your hand strength.

[XXEddie 0]

I agree that I should have taken the free card on the turn, in fact it seems very obvious in hindsight. But shoving the flop I'm not so sure about. Is the overshove there really that much better than a more standard cbet? And I definitely disagree with shoving prf. At this point in the tourny with ~21BB's and an M of 8.3 is that really the best move? I think it's pretty bad, not terrible, but pretty bad. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes. Again.....If they call the c-bet they arent folding to 9k more on the turn. C-betting isn't terrible if youre gonna shut down on the turn barring no A/J/h. But you just spewed away your last 9k. And I dont get all the rage lately to shove 20bb stacks...

[qnshustler 0]

I agree with gnshustler, shoving pre flop is pretty bad play - sure you're going to collect some small pots here and there, but eventually you're going to run into a hand that has you crushed. Usually this costs more chips than what you've gained by shoving marginal hands earlier on.Shoving on the flop to end the hand or to have outs in case of a call is reasonable, so is checking behind and so is the line you took. All three have merits. As played, you were committed on the turn anyway, so might as well put the money in while you still have outs to win the hand (imho, ymmv).

It's Qnshustler, folks. As in QUEENShustler. Because I'm from Queens. Lol just wanted to get that settled since I've seen a couple people put me as Gnshustler.

[qnshustler 0]

We have to shove preflop...it may seem like a bit much, but we're late enough in the table that we're not at a ton of risk of someone waking up behind us with a monster, and stacks are too awkward after the flop.I actually think flatting here is better than just raising, and folding isn't too far behind...stacks are just so awkward. Reason I think flatting is better than raising is because if you hit a board like this or spike top pair, you're likely ahead of the limpers range and can get the money in, and you may provoke a light shove from someone behind you since you're underrepping your hand strength.

Contradiction much?

The bet size on the flop isn't great because as others have pointed out, you have no FE on the turn and you can't fold if you miss the turn (your stack is too small at that point). Given this, try to win it on the flop with a shove.Folding preflop is awful.

Any thoughts on checking behind flop as an option?

Well there are a couple of things that I see about this hand in different scenarios:1.) Preflop- you have two limpers in front of you, but more importantly the SB and button have perfect reshove stacks, because of this I'd probably just be folding this preflop, but I dont mind the raise you made either...just another vantage point on it...but like the two previous to me, shoving is a horrible play preflop.2.) Flop- Because making a normal c-bet leaves you with a stack that you cant use for FE on the turn, you either should be shoving or checking here. The only time you'd make a normal c-bet here is when you hit the flop and try to squeeze out more value by letting the villain "bleed" his chips away.

The button and blinds had been at the table with me for quite a while and were all playing tight and routinely letting me steal their blinds. If any of them had decided to shove over my raise I could fold being about 80-90% certain I was beat as they were NOT looking to gamble or put their moneys in with marginal hands at all. Like cdpierr said folding this prf is just bad methinks.For flop I feel yours and everyone else's point about shove or check. Any criteria you use to determine which you would do? I'm guessing most would just shove because the flop was pretty good for us.

[qnshustler 0]

Also sorry for not hiding the results on this one. I posted it right after the hand and was drunk on self-pity and loathing. Then I went out and got drunk on jack daniels and irish car bombs so I felt a lot better. Then I woke up this afternoon and didn't feel so much better

[XXEddie 0]

Contradiction much?

raise does not mean shove. If I interperated DonkSlayer's post correctly it would beshove>>>>limp>raise>fold

[SwolyswoND 1]

I actually think the biggest problem with this hand was the PF raise size. As most people who have followed my posts would know, I am never going to be in the shove PF camp here. But your raise size is way to small, imo...5k is the absolute minimum here, and since antes are involved I'd probably make it 6k.This also has the additional added effect of a flop shove being a much more "normal" play, and definitively correct at that point.

[Mercury69 3]

Yes, with two UTP limpers, any raise that is intended to win the pot PF effectively puts your entire stack at risk, so go ahead and shove.As played, shove the flop or take the free card and fold to aggression on the turn, saving yourself additional problems on the river.

[DonkSlayer 1]

raise does not mean shove. If I interperated DonkSlayer's post correctly it would beshove>>>>limp>raise>fold

Yep, when I used "just" in front of "raise", I didn't mean shove.

[Wandigo 1]

or take the free card and fold to aggression on the turn, saving yourself additional problems on the river.

I don't think checking back flop and folding to a turn bet is even an option. We have 15 possible outs with <20bbs on this flop, it's a gin spot to get the money in the middle in whatever way possible.as played, I think your pf raise is too small after two limpers. id say either make it ~5k or just pile

[Mercury69 3]

I don't think checking back flop and folding to a turn bet is even an option. We have 15 possible outs with <20bbs on this flop, it's a gin spot to get the money in the middle in whatever way possible.as played, I think your pf raise is too small after two limpers. id say either make it ~5k or just pile

NotedI think I was trying to envision a "safe" line, but all that happens is a reduction of potential outs if a heart doesn't come...Maybe this is an option line with a deeper stack against a wild opponent?

[RISEorFall 0]

I actually think the biggest problem with this hand was the PF raise size. As most people who have followed my posts would know, I am never going to be in the shove PF camp here. But your raise size is way to small, imo...5k is the absolute minimum here, and since antes are involved I'd probably make it 6k.This also has the additional added effect of a flop shove being a much more "normal" play, and definitively correct at that point.

thisshoving 21k to pick up 3k is meh. but if we raise to 5-6k and get called, our stack is closer to pot size on the flop, which makes it a much more "normal" shoveas played, all in on the flop. the pot is over half our stack, and a blank turn card decreases our equity a lot. with a strong made hand we could string him along a little, but here we want our money to go in as a favorite. plus, if do spike an A on the turn he might fold and we lose out on 9k