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tear me apart here...lmk what you think


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#1 s_dogg

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:03 AM

Ok...home game tourney last night with 25 people. This first hand occured with about 13 people left. Blinds at 400-800 with 100 ante. I have about 26,000 in chips (started with 10,000). A guy in first position moves all-in for 3,000 total. It's folded to me one off the button and I re-raise to isolate with KQ offsuit. No one calls and he turns over A3 offsuit. I ended up catching a Q and taking it down. Was this the right play to isolate, or should I even have played this hand against his raise?Second hand happens about 5 minutes later. I'm in the BB and look down at AQ :) . The button, who has been stealing all night and was sitting around 10,000 in chips raises my 1,000 blind to 3,000. Now, I put him on a steal, as he really understood position and the importance of stealing blinds. After think for a few seconds, I put him all in and he immediately calls with AK :D . I didn't suck out and he won the pot. Now was this a stupid play? Or did he just happen to have one of the few hands that had me dominated? Was it unlucky on my part or stupid. I ask these questions because I can't figure it out myself.Thanks
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#2 darkclaymore

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:24 AM

The play with KQ was proper. In late position with 26k I woulda called the all in as well for 3k because you wouldnt have been in bad shape had you lost and there arent alot of hands that really dominate you.The second hand is different...I would not have raised back all in with AQ, you already know this guy is good...a reraise would have been sufficient, I would have sent it back at 5 or 6k to go, and folded to a reraise, or simply called and seen the flop...you definately wouldnt have wanted to straight fold the AQ, however it's too risky to put that many chips in the pot without some idea of his hand strength knowing he likes to steal and may steal with anything. A smaller raise may have actually gotten him to fold possibly putting you on KK or AA and attempting to suck out more chips, the all in would have looked like a BB semi bluff to me and I would have called you as well.

#3 HoosierAlum

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:27 AM

s_dogg said:

Ok...home game tourney last night with 25 people.  This first hand occured with about 13 people left.  Blinds at 400-800 with 100 ante.  I have about 26,000 in chips (started with 10,000).  A guy in first position moves all-in for 3,000 total.  It's folded to me one off the button and I re-raise to isolate with KQ offsuit.  No one calls and he turns over A3 offsuit.  I ended up catching a Q and taking it down.  Was this the right play to isolate, or should I even have played this hand against his raise?Second hand happens about 5 minutes later.  I'm in the BB and look down at AQ :) .  The button, who has been stealing all night and was sitting around 10,000 in chips raises my 1,000 blind to 3,000.  Now, I put him on a steal, as he really understood position and the importance of stealing blinds.  After think for a few seconds, I put him all in and he immediately calls with AK :D .  I didn't suck out and he won the pot.  Now was this a stupid play?  Or did he just happen to have one of the few hands that had me dominated?  Was it unlucky on my part or stupid.  I ask these questions because I can't figure it out myself.Thanks
On the first hand, how much did you re-raise? What were the playing styles/chip stacks of the two players behind you? Personally, I don't like re-raising here at all. It can only hurt you. If the stacks still to act have you covered and push all in, what is your move? You basically just wasted chips on the raise. A skilled player from the blinds who has you covered might push all in and force you to lay down your hand when he has an inferior holding. What does re-raising here accomplish? You say you did it to isolate, but how much did you raise to isolate? I would prefer making the call. This way, if someone in the blinds wakes up with a monster, you are only stuck 3k, and can still get out cheaply.Ok, think about the math in this situation. The button makes it 3k to go, so with the 1500 blinds and 3k raise the pot =4500. You push him all in for 7k more, so the pot is now 11500. He has to call 7 k in a 11500 pot, not giving him the best pot odds. But, you have to ask yourself, will he call with pretty much any 2 since he is loose and needs to double up, and would be stuck to 7BB if he folded? And if he does call, your AQ isnt necessarily a dominating hand unless he has Ax. Personally, I probably would push back given his range of holdings in this case. He has been stealing alot, and you figure to have the best hand or a coin flip. You are playing to win the tourney, so accumulating chips is never a bad idea. However, calling the raise and putting in 2k and seeing a flop isnt necessarily the worst play ever. However, it is very difficult for me to give a difinitive answer on this question because I don't know how many chips you have at this point in time. If pushing all in cripples you, calling wouldnt be so bad.

#4 HoosierAlum

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 07:41 AM

darkclaymore said:

...a reraise would have been sufficient, I would have sent it back at 5 or 6k to go, and folded to a reraise,
Ok, I hope I have misunderstood what you are advocating here. You are telling him to re-raise making it 6k to go which would make the pot 10500. Now he reraises all in for his last 7k making the pot 17500. That means you have to call 3k since you already reraised. So a 17500 pot and you have to call 3k, giving you 5.83 to 1. ...and you want to FOLD?!!!!??? Not the best advice.

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 09:00 AM

HoosierAlum said:

darkclaymore said:

...a reraise would have been sufficient, I would have sent it back at 5 or 6k to go, and folded to a reraise,
Ok, I hope I have misunderstood what you are advocating here. You are telling him to re-raise making it 6k to go which would make the pot 10500. Now he reraises all in for his last 7k making the pot 17500. That means you have to call 3k since you already reraised. So a 17500 pot and you have to call 3k, giving you 5.83 to 1. ...and you want to FOLD?!!!!??? Not the best advice.
I thought the same thing when I read darkclaymore's advice. Since the button's chips are so short there is little way you're not going to get all the money in on this hand.Looking at darkclaymore's advice shows it to be even worse. Any good player will call a small raise like that with ANY two cards. There is 3500 in the pot not counting whatever you make it to go from the BB. A raise to 5 or 6K yields a pot of 8.5K or 9.5K with the button having to call 2K or 3K. This means the button is getting over 4:1 or over 3:1 on the call, easy with anything. On average, any two cards should call in this position and see the flop as they're getting the odds to do so.One other to play to think about is this. You think the button is on a steal. However, the pot is already big compared to the button's chip stack. You pushing all-in causes the button to decide to call his last 7000 into a 13500 pot, getting almost 2:1 on the call, he's going to call with any two reasonable cards.If you instead call preflop, and automatically push on the flop, regardless of what comes down. This allows you to win hands you wouldn't have otherwise as the opponent is forced to have something on the flop to reasonably call the all-in. ie, if the flop comes 310J and they have 55, they're going to be hardpressed to call, while they would easily call preflop.This costs you nothing extra with this approach, but you have the ability to win pots you otherwise wouldn't have which is huge.ZaraZara

#6 s_dogg

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 09:09 AM

HoosierAlum said:

s_dogg said:

Ok...home game tourney last night with 25 people. This first hand occured with about 13 people left. Blinds at 400-800 with 100 ante. I have about 26,000 in chips (started with 10,000). A guy in first position moves all-in for 3,000 total. It's folded to me one off the button and I re-raise to isolate with KQ offsuit. No one calls and he turns over A3 offsuit. I ended up catching a Q and taking it down. Was this the right play to isolate, or should I even have played this hand against his raise?Second hand happens about 5 minutes later. I'm in the BB and look down at AQ :) . The button, who has been stealing all night and was sitting around 10,000 in chips raises my 1,000 blind to 3,000. Now, I put him on a steal, as he really understood position and the importance of stealing blinds. After think for a few seconds, I put him all in and he immediately calls with AK :D . I didn't suck out and he won the pot. Now was this a stupid play? Or did he just happen to have one of the few hands that had me dominated? Was it unlucky on my part or stupid. I ask these questions because I can't figure it out myself.Thanks
On the first hand, how much did you re-raise? What were the playing styles/chip stacks of the two players behind you? Personally, I don't like re-raising here at all. It can only hurt you. If the stacks still to act have you covered and push all in, what is your move? You basically just wasted chips on the raise. A skilled player from the blinds who has you covered might push all in and force you to lay down your hand when he has an inferior holding. What does re-raising here accomplish? You say you did it to isolate, but how much did you raise to isolate? I would prefer making the call. This way, if someone in the blinds wakes up with a monster, you are only stuck 3k, and can still get out cheaply.Ok, think about the math in this situation. The button makes it 3k to go, so with the 1500 blinds and 3k raise the pot =4500. You push him all in for 7k more, so the pot is now 11500. He has to call 7 k in a 11500 pot, not giving him the best pot odds. But, you have to ask yourself, will he call with pretty much any 2 since he is loose and needs to double up, and would be stuck to 7BB if he folded? And if he does call, your AQ isnt necessarily a dominating hand unless he has Ax. Personally, I probably would push back given his range of holdings in this case. He has been stealing alot, and you figure to have the best hand or a coin flip. You are playing to win the tourney, so accumulating chips is never a bad idea. However, calling the raise and putting in 2k and seeing a flop isnt necessarily the worst play ever. However, it is very difficult for me to give a difinitive answer on this question because I don't know how many chips you have at this point in time. If pushing all in cripples you, calling wouldnt be so bad.
In the first situiation, the two players behind me were extremely tight, so I know they wouldn't have made a move without JJ, QQ, KK, AA, or AK. I was chip leader at the table, so I raised it enough to where it would have pot committed either on of them. I understand what you're saying by wasting chips with the reraise. Really the only thing it could've done was cost me chips. What hands would you put a reraise in with?In the 2nd situtation, I hand about 32,000. I figured he would make that play with any pair, any A, or any 2 face cards. The only hands, I was worried about were obviously AA, KK, QQ, or AK. and the only 2 hands that have me completely dominated are AK and AA. Not that I wouldn't be way behind with KK or QQ, but I would have had a better chance against those 2. I really put him somewhere between A9-AJ, but I was obviously wrong. The hand put me down to about 21 or 22,000, so it was a third of my stack at the time. Luckily, I hit a few hands and ending up getting second, but I definetly know I could have made better decisions in a few places.
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#7 Jordan

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 09:27 AM

Did you like how I bluffed away my entire stack with 5 high? LOLIt was fun last night and for basically, the entire night, I was dicking around...until we got to the final table.Once we got down to three though I didn't care. Maybe I should have more..but whatever. I thought it was weird that you coming in 2nd only got $20 more bucks than me, coming in third.meh.How about, next week we both make the FT again.later.- Jordan

#8 s_dogg

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 11:25 AM

Yeah it was pretty fun. Next week I'll be in Biloxi, so let's shoot for the week after. I did think it was weird that I only got $20 extra for 2nd than 3rd, but I wasn't in charge so I can't complain. It was definetly fun though.
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