49 replies to this topic

[Danege]

Seriously everyone,Whatgreatis > Everyone else in this thread who doesn't agree with him.

[tskillz187]

Vinny_Barberino, on Wednesday, July 8th, 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

Agreed. I seriously think that was a dumb concept, get used to stacking off light? I am coming to grips with the fact, that there may be no "right" way to play this hand, and a lot of that had to do with whatgreatis's thoughts about getting extra value from the hand. I still think c/b is my way of playing it, because I feel more comfortable not guessing and get the easiest value... But... I did not take JJ into a pot three-bet preflop, OOP, and say "boy, theres a king, I better get in 'stack off light' mode"

There's a right way to play this hand. It is checking the flop and calling. Ryan wasn't saying you hafta stack off light and trap with JJ, the point was, what is villain's range to bet flop, bet turn, bet river. He's repping some really narrow shit with that line. When people rep very narrow ranges on drawy boards, well it's usually a call but it's villain dependent. You're not always calling off here, you aren't usually calling off here, but it has to be a possibility.The only think betting JJ here does is make the hand easier to play, but it makes it less +EV to play. Until you start putting yourself in uncomfortable situations where you have to think about what villain is repping and how his bet sizing correlates with it, you won't improve by just waiting for big mistakes. These are little spots that make a dramatic difference in your development as a player.The EV between betting here and c/c a few streets is probably small. It's the concept behind it that makes it really big.

Fade2241, on Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 11:51 AM, said:

I understand that people want to be cautious but I haven't heard anyone talk about protecting our hand yet, what gives? I know there are better NL cash players than me here so maybe someone can explain it to me. The logic isn't quite registering in my thick head yet. :)IMO You are ahead of a lot of the caller's range (AQ-A10, QJ, 99 + other random pockets etc) and checking down gives the villain a chance to catch up for free.

I tried to cover this earlier, but maybe I didn't write it well or you disagree. Betting for protection is kind of whack in the first place, but we have to do it sometimes. We have 55 on a K826 board, sometimes we're betting the turn here (if we checked flop) for protection against any over card to a 5 that wouldn't call a bet or bluff, so no reason to let him draw for free.In this hand we have JJ on a KTx two spade board and we're OOP in a 3bet pot. What kinds of hands do we bet for protection against? Over cards that won't bluff and won't call with worse. Every overcard combo in villains 3bet calling range has either top pair, middle pair, straight draw, or gutshot + over cards. We aren't folding anything by betting. He's literally calling with all of those hands, so we didn't protect against anything. All we did was fold the very bottom of his range which was air. That's never a good result, we want his range to be as weak as possible in this situation.

[Dubey]

Agree with everything tskillz and whatgreatis wrote in this thread.Vinny, and other supporters of the c-bet, can we agree that we are ahead a lot of the time on the flop here? Ok, now, given the times that we are ahead, think of all the scenarios that can occur if we bet the flop. Compare that with the scenarios that can happen if we check the flop.i think you will find that checking puts us in a lot more 'favourable' situations than betting does.also, since this is a big pot, any mistake we make is amplified. Betting makes it a lot more likely that we will make a huge mistake in this hand (folding the winning hand)

[Fade2241]

tskillz187, on Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

I tried to cover this earlier, but maybe I didn't write it well or you disagree. Betting for protection is kind of whack in the first place, but we have to do it sometimes. We have 55 on a K826 board, sometimes we're betting the turn here (if we checked flop) for protection against any over card to a 5 that wouldn't call a bet or bluff, so no reason to let him draw for free.In this hand we have JJ on a KTx two spade board and we're OOP in a 3bet pot. What kinds of hands do we bet for protection against? Over cards that won't bluff and won't call with worse. Every overcard combo in villains 3bet calling range has either top pair, middle pair, straight draw, or gutshot + over cards. We aren't folding anything by betting. He's literally calling with all of those hands, so we didn't protect against anything. All we did was fold the very bottom of his range which was air. That's never a good result, we want his range to be as weak as possible in this situation.

Okay I see your point a little better, thank you for reitterating it for me. If you think all of those hands are coming along then I can see why you wouldn't want to put more money in the pot. Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.

[whatgreatis]

Fade2241, on Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 2:17 PM, said:

Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.

lol flawed thinking.

[Vinny_Barberino]

Honestly?? Maybe the players who are checking, and getting all this thin value by the river from the villian's range, are just better at poker then me. Maybe its less +EV for you, but for me if I don't bet the flop I don't know what the hell I'm doing so it's the right play with my current poker skill. I just can't believe that you guys really play a hand like this and get several streets of value from all these mid pocket pairs, and AT which just keep betting at you (and bets we keep calling) more often then you just lose a big pot to a bigger pair or AK or something playing that way, a hand that would actually call a three-bet and keep firing.

[Fade2241]

whatgreatis, on Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 2:49 PM, said:

lol flawed thinking.

That's why I'm here. I like your guy's line I just don't think I ever play it like that. It's def making me question my thinking.

[whatgreatis]

Fade2241, on Friday, July 10th, 2009, 7:28 AM, said:

That's why I'm here. I like your guy's line I just don't think I ever play it like that. It's def making me question my thinking.

Good. Thinking about the game all the time, and ways to improve is good. I question my thinking all the time. I'm going to point out what/why was flawed with your statement. Please think about what I am writing a lot because its a big deal.

Fade2241, on Thursday, July 9th, 2009, 3:17 PM, said:

Okay I see your point a little better, thank you for reitterating it for me. If you think all of those hands are coming along then I can see why you wouldn't want to put more money in the pot. Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.

The bolded is very flawed. When you say "I want to grab this nice pot right now" you're implying that your playing the hand as a bluff off the flop, which you def should not be. It implys that you think about taking the pot right away before you can get sucked out on, or whatever and not how to play each hand to show the highest expectation. You should start trying to break down villains ranges and how each part of his range will react to different bets. When you can do that effectively, poker is a ez game.

[Fade2241]

whatgreatis, on Saturday, July 11th, 2009, 1:15 AM, said:

Good. Thinking about the game all the time, and ways to improve is good. I question my thinking all the time. I'm going to point out what/why was flawed with your statement. Please think about what I am writing a lot because its a big deal.The bolded is very flawed. When you say "I want to grab this nice pot right now" you're implying that your playing the hand as a bluff off the flop, which you def should not be. It implys that you think about taking the pot right away before you can get sucked out on, or whatever and not how to play each hand to show the highest expectation. You should start trying to break down villains ranges and how each part of his range will react to different bets. When you can do that effectively, poker is a ez game.

Good stuff, thanks man! The bolded is great advice but def easier said than done. I always break down ranges in tourney poker well but I don't think I know how to as well in cash yet. I def got your point tho, i def wasn't thinking in terms of highest expectation but simply how not to get sucked out on, lol. It makes more sense now, thanks again!

[mtdesmoines]

Fade2241, on Tuesday, July 14th, 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

Good stuff, thanks man! The bolded is great advice but def easier said than done. I always break down ranges in tourney poker well but I don't think I know how to as well in cash yet. I def got your point tho, i def wasn't thinking in terms of highest expectation but simply how not to get sucked out on, lol. It makes more sense now, thanks again!

When you stop doing this, the whole game opens up to you.