17 replies to this topic

[TheRegime]

This situation came up a few times since I play pretty aggressive.

Call a raise preflop with a hand like KQ or QJ from BB. Hand has 3 players in it, button, SB, BB.

Flop is low like 2 4 5 with two clubs.

Pot is 20BB

SB checks.
I stab 10BB trying to steal.
Loose button player min raises 10BB more.
SB folds.
I read him weak and reraise 20BB more.
He shoves only about 20BB more on top.

Total pot is 120BB and its 20BB to call with just overcards and no flush draw. Do I have to call being so committed, if so at what pot odds is it right to call? Should I fold? Can I put him on a flush draw/overcard combo enough times to call?

Also I know I shouldnt get in these situations but they have happened so Im curious.

[JoblessBast]

There are so many "why" questions I don't even know where to begin...

What level is this? I assume it's around $10NL or so... why are you making things so complicated at that level?
Why are you making ridiculous moves out of position in a multiway pot? You said this came up several times. Your image must be shot, what are you trying to accomplish here?
This is online, right? Why do you read a loose player as weak who minraises a connected low card board?
Why are you minraising a loose player with air?
Why are you so impatient? This obviously ties into your bankroll management issues and it's blatantly reflected in your game.

I'm not a strat expert by any means so maybe some others can answer your question about the hand. That being said, I don't really see the point. You seem to have some leaks on a larger scale that are more important, starting with how you approach the game in general. Not trying to be rude, just my observation here compared with your other threads.

[TheRegime]

There are so many "why" questions I don't even know where to begin...

What level is this? I assume it's around $10NL or so... why are you making things so complicated at that level?
Why are you making ridiculous moves out of position in a multiway pot? You said this came up several times. Your image must be shot, what are you trying to accomplish here?
This is online, right? Why do you read a loose player as weak who minraises a connected low card board?
Why are you minraising a loose player with air?
Why are you so impatient? This obviously ties into your bankroll management issues and it's blatantly reflected in your game.

I'm not a strat expert by any means so maybe some others can answer your question about the hand. That being said, I don't really see the point. You seem to have some leaks on a larger scale that are more important, starting with how you approach the game in general. Not trying to be rude, just my observation here compared with your other threads.

I meant several times over the years in home games and such. It just happened in 25NL online is why I asked. I know it was totally wrong and I really need to stop trying to steal pots all the time. But if I ever do slip again when are you so committed you have to call?

[bigbluffzinc]

Ok, in this situation, yes and no when it comes to calling.... on that board, your opponent should have two pair minimum, which means you should fold because you won't make the winning hand even 20% of the time.. as to what the above poster has said, sometimes you have to go with your read but at the stakes youre more than likely playing you should be going with the cards... Bluffs dont work often at lower limits especially when players commit to the idea, even if they are bluffing as shown by your play of the hand... there are also likely HUGE leaks in your game as you said you took a 10BB stab at the pot with 3 players in.. if you raised pf to 3x bb and got 2 callers then there are 9 BB in the pot, how is 10BB a stab... its an overbet and a HORRIBLE spot to bluff ESPECIALLY on that board against a blind who can have any two cards... just my two cents

[bigbluffzinc]

Ok I missed that there were 20BB in preflop, but how did you call 6-7 BB effective with less than the nuts at lower limits?

[TheRegime]

Ok I missed that there were 20BB in preflop, but how did you call 6-7 BB effective with less than the nuts at lower limits?

I think a 3BB raise by the button I had QJ suited and called in SB. BB reraised about 3BB more and button called. So it was small enough for me to call with QJ suited. So like 6 or 7 BB each cuz of the min reraise.

After I stabbed the min reraiser BB folded. And the raise/caller button min raised me. Then I raised back and they shoved for a min reraise.

I know this is a huge leak and I have thought about my game and am doing things to correct it. I just wanna know in this situation can I call.

[Solar]

Worst played hand ever?

with KQ...
preflop: 3bet > fold > call.

Donking the flop with missed overs is terrible, and then the stupidly small 3bet that hes never ever ever folding to is even worse.

If the raise was only to 3bb I might just call because the sb is in aswell. Otherwise I 3bet or fold. Playing pots out of position is -EV and playing like this is -EV x1000.

[Solar]

I know this is a huge leak and I have thought about my game and am doing things to correct it. I just wanna know in this situation can I call.

Try playing a session where you never flat call a raise with anything except for small pairs (ie setmining) either in or out of position.

Not saying this is the optimal way to play, but its a worthy experiment.

[TheRegime]

Try playing a session where you never flat call a raise with anything except for small pairs (ie setmining) either in or out of position.

Not saying this is the optimal way to play, but its a worthy experiment.

Ive heard of that style. The bet/raise or fold strategy. I may try it some time.

Anyways enough evaluating the hand. I realized I played it absolutely terrible and everything was wrong. All I want to know is when you do bluff big on a c bet or what have you, when are you committed to call?

[trystero]

You're asking the wrong question. I mean you could just as easily ask, So I 3-bet some guy with 5-2 to 90 BBs, he shoves for 10 more, do I HAVE to call ? It doesn't matter; it's the wrong question. You need to ask yourself, instead, how do I avoid getting into spots where I'm forced to make these calls? And the answer is, probably...don't just spazz out bluff without a read.

Poker's about profit, not pushing everyone around.

[DemonDonk]

I chucked my last chips in on a semi bluff with a fl d and OE some stupidly low amount more than the other guy was betting, i think he bet .66 and i shoved for .70 and he folded. So yeah call, if it is that bad.

[TheRegime]

Okay well I am constantly working on my cash game play. My SNG play is pretty good since I play home game SNGs all the time.

In this situation I put the guy on overcards and a flush draw. i figured I had to call hoping to have 6 outs.

Flop 2c 4c 5s

He had Ac9c
I had QdJd

Turn Js
River 6d

I called after commiting myself bluffing and ended up sucking out. I have really starting working on this and my BR managemnt. I need better online discipline but hopefully it will get there.

[Biff Goods]

Let me get this straight

On the flop....

There is 20bb in the pot...

You bet 10...he makes it 20 (pot is now 50bb and opponent has 40bb left)

Instead of putting in the ten for the call (pot 60) and putting the rest of his money in (making the pot 100 and forcing him to call 40 to see it)

You go ahead and raise 20bb more...(making the pot 80).........leaving him to either A) Call...20 to see 80 or shove 40 to see 80 also...I might add...leaving you with a terrible decision on whether to call the last 20 getting a gazillion to 1 odds.

Oh and you read the guy as weak.

Let's face it you asked this question probably cause you called a guy who had pocket 8's and you rivered a Q on him and he bitched at you. You now want validity. But what all the posts before are trying to get you to understand...(which won't happen btw) is that you shouldn't be putting yourself in this situation .....like......EVER...

1) play pf more aggressively - you are....as you say....an "aggressive player."
2) Check fold the flop....you missed.
3) If you just HAVE....to bluff.....make it a man's bluff and put him all in...instead of making the little wuss 3bet on the flop.

[TheRegime]

Let me get this straight

On the flop....

There is 20bb in the pot...

You bet 10...he makes it 20 (pot is now 50bb and opponent has 40bb left)

Instead of putting in the ten for the call (pot 60) and putting the rest of his money in (making the pot 100 and forcing him to call 40 to see it)

You go ahead and raise 20bb more...(making the pot 80).........leaving him to either A) Call...20 to see 80 or shove 40 to see 80 also...I might add...leaving you with a terrible decision on whether to call the last 20 getting a gazillion to 1 odds.

Oh and you read the guy as weak.

Let's face it you asked this question probably cause you called a guy who had pocket 8's and you rivered a Q on him and he bitched at you. You now want validity. But what all the posts before are trying to get you to understand...(which won't happen btw) is that you shouldn't be putting yourself in this situation .....like......EVER...

1) play pf more aggressively - you are....as you say....an "aggressive player."
2) Check fold the flop....you missed.
3) If you just HAVE....to bluff.....make it a man's bluff and put him all in...instead of making the little wuss 3bet on the flop.

Ya I should of just shoved him. Also I dont want validity, I made the wrong decision but it felt like I had to call. I just want to know what to do in these awkward situations. yes I called and hit and bad beat his A high flush draw. I felt gross afterwards.

[jmbreslin]

Diagnosis: Fancy Play Syndrome

Treatment: Stop making stupid fancy plays

Stabbing at a pot with missed overcards after flat calling preflop against 3 villains is just spewing chips.

It's also a bit odd that you reraised him based on your read that he was weak. Weaker than your QJ overcards? Did you honestly think he would make a minraise in a multiway pot and then fold to a 3-bet when you didn't show any aggression preflop?

Pick your spots. This shouldn't be one of them.

[thavinny9]

There are so many "why" questions I don't even know where to begin...

What level is this? I assume it's around $10NL or so... why are you making things so complicated at that level?
Why are you making ridiculous moves out of position in a multiway pot? You said this came up several times. Your image must be shot, what are you trying to accomplish here?
This is online, right? Why do you read a loose player as weak who minraises a connected low card board?
Why are you minraising a loose player with air?
Why are you so impatient? This obviously ties into your bankroll management issues and it's blatantly reflected in your game.

I'm not a strat expert by any means so maybe some others can answer your question about the hand. That being said, I don't really see the point. You seem to have some leaks on a larger scale that are more important, starting with how you approach the game in general. Not trying to be rude, just my observation here compared with your other threads.

i completly agree to this.

you don't need to do things like that out of position, you're asking for trouble

being selectively agressive is paying in these spots

as jmbreslin said, it's a fancy play syndrome case

[strappazon]

I meant several times over the years in home games and such. It just happened in 25NL online is why I asked. I know it was totally wrong and I really need to stop trying to steal pots all the time. But if I ever do slip again when are you so committed you have to call?

I don't think you should take your descision to call or not because of the pot odds. Of course it is important too. But your first problems should be to put your opponents on a range of hands, then trying to know why he makes this move.

Whould you call on the river just because you have some good pot odds with no hand if there's a good chance that your opponent actually have the best hand? i hope no...

[strappazon]

3) If you just HAVE....to bluff.....make it a man's bluff and put him all in...instead of making the little wuss 3bet on the flop.