22 replies to this topic

[trystero]

100 eff stacks, villain is relatively unknown; however, assume that you know he has at least TPGK here

You're dealt J 8 OTB and raise to 3.5
Called by both SB and BB

Flop [ A J T ]
(10.5 BBs)

SB checks
BB bets the pot

Do you raise/call here w/your draw or do you flat call and shove over his bet on the turn if you improve, or fold if not? Assume you know he will pot every turn

Raise/call can't be wrong, given the dead $, but I'm wondering if it's better to call and shove any turn

Need some math help

[NoBBiR]

It's always better to just try to get as much in on the flop as possible. Waiting and shoving any turn looks stronger but also basically commits him if he's potting the turn no matter what.

[Footballguru]

100 eff stacks, villain is relatively unknown; however, assume that you know he has at least TPGK here

You're dealt J 8 OTB and raise to 3.5
Called by both SB and BB

Flop [ A J T ]
(10.5 BBs)

SB checks
BB bets the pot

Do you raise/call here w/your draw or do you flat call and shove over his bet on the turn if you improve, or fold if not? Assume you know he will pot every turn

Raise/call can't be wrong, given the dead $, but I'm wondering if it's better to call and shove any turn

Need some math help

with any open ender + fd on unpaird board (esp against a single opponent, since it is less likely someone has a high FD) on the flop, personally i raise/push/etc and try to get it in on the flop under any but the most dire circumstanctes.

[SwolyswoND]

Raise. Mostly because your hand is so strong, but this is also excellent for balance b/c it allows you to play made hands like flopped straights/flushes/trips fast too, b/c opponents won't know if you're playing a big flop with a made hand or a draw.

If villain is bad enough to be donking pot here on the flop (and you know he will donk pot size on the turn), then it's going to take two barrels and not just one to push him off ace-rag here, which should be high on our list of goals in the hand. If he really was going to double barrel PSB with Tx or air then I guess we lose value, but it's hard to really hard to expect someone to do that.

[Solar]

Raise/call can't be wrong, given the dead $, but I'm wondering if it's better to call and shove any turn

call and shove turn could be a good line, but is probably over thinking things. I just raise to ~30bb pretty much always. What level is this?

[tskillz187]

LOL... if you know villain has top pair good kicker+ and isn't folding + is always potting the turn calling seems a lot better, no? And folding if we don't improve, obv.

The hands you are saying villain could have are TT, JJ, AA (which I didn't even include in stove), ATss+. AT+. KQss, KQo.

Our equity is piss poor there.

It's like 60-40 villain with that range.

[NoBBiR]

LOL... if you know villain has top pair good kicker+ and isn't folding + is always potting the turn calling seems a lot better, no? And folding if we don't improve, obv.

The hands you are saying villain could have are TT, JJ, AA (which I didn't even include in stove), ATss+. AT+. KQss, KQo.

Our equity is piss poor there.

It's like 60-40 villain with that range.

You think AA or JJ can be in his range when he's supposedly not a retard? So he flatted over a BTN raise and a SB call with AA or JJ? I don't think so. ATss can't be in his range, they're on the board.

Besides, if you think his range is only sets, the nuts, and top two, we might as well fold, since we're drawing to basically just a flush against all of those hands except AT where we can hit an extra two jacks.

[tskillz187]

Of course I don't think a lot of those hands are in his range, it's his stupid hypothetical. SS is standing for suited cards, stove realizes that spade combos cannot be included if they are on the board.

TPGK+ are his range, that is vague and doesn't really exist, he doesnt reraise AK pf? What we're really saying is villain has AQ or two pair should I push if I know he'll pot next street regardless. The answer is still no. Even if villains range is only AQss and AQo we should still just call flop unless there's fold equity, but I thought we were saying there wasnt and I really don't think there is, but I don't like the example anyways.

[tskillz187]

How do we know he's not a retard anyways? We are opening to 3.5x otb in the example, which would seem pretty bad unless the blinds were retarded in the first place.

[NoBBiR]

How do we know he's not a retard anyways? We are opening to 3.5x otb in the example, which would seem pretty bad unless the blinds were retarded in the first place.

How is opening to 3.5x OTB bad? Pretty much everyone either opens for 3x, 3.5x or 4x. I open for 3x but I don't think it's particularly bad to open for and extra half of a blind, do you?

And I just assumed that if he's potting both streets and we're under the impression he has at least TPGK (which like you said is basically just saying he has AQ) that we can't consider him a moron since he never shows up with a complete trash hand.

I really hate hypothetical questions lol.

[tskillz187]

Well again, in this example I'm assuming it folded to us on the button? But potting the button if it folds to us is probably not the highest EV play depending on the blinds frequencies. A lot of people are switching to 2.5button and cutoff opens to give you more room because blinds are 3betting a lot, or folding and if they do start to call more it's okay because people aren't used to playing lots of pots OOP without the betting lead.

If the blinds are really cally though, they suck and hero might as well just hit pot because they are calling too often and only 3betting nut hands. Generally if you're opening more than 3x on the button you're probably not adjusting properly pf. Like my open was 4x from UTg and MP, then 3x from CO and button, but if I was still playing 6max most player I know have switched to 4xUTG and 3x from other spots and maybe 2.5x on button, some 3x everywhere and 2.5x button. But I play HU now, cuz 6max games are lol nittastic a lot of the time.

[NoBBiR]

Well again, in this example I'm assuming it folded to us on the button? But potting the button if it folds to us is probably not the highest EV play depending on the blinds frequencies. A lot of people are switching to 2.5button and cutoff opens to give you more room because blinds are 3betting a lot, or folding and if they do start to call more it's okay because people aren't used to playing lots of pots OOP without the betting lead.

If the blinds are really cally though, they suck and hero might as well just hit pot because they are calling too often and only 3betting nut hands. Generally if you're opening more than 3x on the button you're probably not adjusting properly pf. Like my open was 4x from UTg and MP, then 3x from CO and button, but if I was still playing 6max most player I know have switched to 4xUTG and 3x from other spots and maybe 2.5x on button, some 3x everywhere and 2.5x button. But I play HU now, cuz 6max games are lol nittastic a lot of the time.

I guess maybe I just assume that 3.5x isn't awful OTB since the only levels I play are the ones where people call too much and it makes it seem better. But I have been opening 3x in the BTN and CO and 4xing UTG and UTG+1 for about the last 5 months and i think it has quite a few advantages over just potting every position when you raise. Never thought about 2.5xing button though.

[trystero]

lol what 3.5 otb is bad at 25nl since when ? Anyway it doesn't really matter as it's not relevant. I don't see why this hypothetical tilts you so hard, Tskillz. The question is a basic one concerning equity. Is it better to get it in here with our draw or is it better to flat call and get it in on the turn if we hit, otherwise, fold ? You seem to think the decision's clear-cut but no one else does. I'm curious if someone can provide a mathematical answer (I really cannot which is why I'm using the forum - da ding - to ask for help).

[NoBBiR]

lol what 3.5 otb is bad at 25nl since when ? Anyway it doesn't really matter as it's not relevant. I don't see why this hypothetical tilts you so hard, Tskillz. The question is a basic one concerning equity. Is it better to get it in here with our draw or is it better to flat call and get it in on the turn if we hit, otherwise, fold ? You seem to think the decision's clear-cut but no one else does. I'm curious if someone can provide a mathematical answer (I really cannot which is why I'm using the forum - da ding - to ask for help).

It basically depends on if you think he'll fold TPGK or something else on the flop. If so, then putting more in the pot is great since we get a few different results:
1) We can possible get the best hand out,
2) We might get called but get an opportunity to check behind on the turn to hit our draw,
3) We might get called and make our hand and stack up,
4) and although it's not really a super positive, we might get it in as a slight favorite. Although obviously we could get it in drawing to a naked flush draw which isn't good at all.

If he never will fold the flop, then it's better to avoid being a dog to his range (we're like 60:40 against AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, JT, and AK) and just calling and folding unimproved as we risk less and only continue when we're likely ahead.

[tskillz187]

What is the range you give him Tryst? It's an easy equity decision once you give him a range, your initial range of tpgk+ makes you a 60-40 dog. That's worst case with all possible sets n shit. It's tilting because if he has tpgk and he's potting at you he's not going to fold. If he's not going to fold and his hand is currently better than yours (and your %s are like 51% him 49% you against AQ) then why not just call?

You picked like the shittiest board possible for our combo draw (prob on purpose, cuz it's a hypothetical or w/e) and raising just because it's a combo draw with lots of outs like people have said doesn't make sense in this situation. If you're playing against someone better than you, it's fine to shove here because it's basically a coinflip with a 10bbs in the pot. Shoving is +EV. Calling is ++++EV given the parameters you set up.

Edit: Also you phrased the first post as if the options were shove flop or shove turn no matter what, which seems like a horrible idea. It's def call and shove improved or call and fold unimproved if you go the call flop route.

[tskillz187]

And 3.5x on the button is bad, unless the players are bad, like I stated before. If it's $25nl or w/e they probably are bad but the limit doesn't make the raise size correct it's the villain's in the blind that dictate what the raise size should be, obv.

As for Nobb, your raise sizes are probably correct/right it's just the understanding behind why you do those raise sizes. Don't go 2.5xing against people that will call more and c/f all flops they miss etc. I'd even suggest experimenting with different horribad players with like 5x and stuff. The whole idea of 2.5xing and lowering the open was so their 3bet was smaller, so that you can call and have bigger stack/pot ratio, or so you can 4 bet bluff cheaper.

Given 100bb stacks if you open 2.5x, villain will prob 3bet in the 8-10x range, if it's 10x then you can take advantage of him 3betting too large and making more 4bet bluffs because he's going to need to fold to 4bets a lot. So you go 2.5x-10x-23x or something like that and you can still fold if he shoves after putting 23% of stack in, if he's calling those 4bets he's lol bad and gonna get raped. If it goes 2.5x-8x then you can call and keep the pot pretty small when you want to. Going 3.5x otb means villain is going to be going to 12x+ a lot and then you are in a position where you're making a decision for your stack a lot of the time and you have to make the tough decisions. It just makes your effective stack sizes smaller.

That was ridic long-winded, sorry.

[NoBBiR]

And 3.5x on the button is bad, unless the players are bad, like I stated before. If it's $25nl or w/e they probably are bad but the limit doesn't make the raise size correct it's the villain's in the blind that dictate what the raise size should be, obv.

As for Nobb, your raise sizes are probably correct/right it's just the understanding behind why you do those raise sizes. Don't go 2.5xing against people that will call more and c/f all flops they miss etc. I'd even suggest experimenting with different horribad players with like 5x and stuff. The whole idea of 2.5xing and lowering the open was so their 3bet was smaller, so that you can call and have bigger stack/pot ratio, or so you can 4 bet bluff cheaper.

Given 100bb stacks if you open 2.5x, villain will prob 3bet in the 8-10x range, if it's 10x then you can take advantage of him 3betting too large and making more 4bet bluffs because he's going to need to fold to 4bets a lot. So you go 2.5x-10x-23x or something like that and you can still fold if he shoves after putting 23% of stack in, if he's calling those 4bets he's lol bad and gonna get raped. If it goes 2.5x-8x then you can call and keep the pot pretty small when you want to. Going 3.5x otb means villain is going to be going to 12x+ a lot and then you are in a position where you're making a decision for your stack a lot of the time and you have to make the tough decisions. It just makes your effective stack sizes smaller.

That was ridic long-winded, sorry.

But it was well put so no one cares haha.

[Solar]

And 3.5x on the button is bad, unless the players are bad, like I stated before. If it's $25nl or w/e they probably are bad but the limit doesn't make the raise size correct it's the villain's in the blind that dictate what the raise size should be, obv.

This is true, but at 25nl we shouldn't be playing at tables where the people on our left are going to be 3-betting us light a ton. Because if we are, changing tables is going to be way more +ev than opening for half a blind less.

[tskillz187]

Yeah I agree, I don't think I've played a winning player in a month.

[trystero]

Tskillz, from my OP:

"and shove over his bet on the turn if you improve, or fold if not?"

....the sentence may be a bit awkward, but it says that if we improve on the turn we should shove; otherwise we should fold. So yea I see those as the only viable options - shoving over his turn bet UI, when it's clear we have no FE, is bad.

Reason I posted this example was because most people have an attitude of "combo draw, get it in," since that's generally an +EV play. However I've always felt, like you, that calling is the better play as, although raising is +EV, calling and getting the money in as a huge favorite - perhaps 100/0 - is even more EV. All the same, we have to fold on most turns and surrender a pot of 30 BBs. So I was wondering if anyone could provide some EV calculation that takes into account the amount of times we lose 30 BBs, we lose the whole pot, we win the whole pot, etc - the means of this are obviously beyond me (all I can do really do are basic calculations, like the EV of a shove).

I agree w/you about raising smaller as an appropriate adjustment to light 3-betting. While I don't play anyone regularly that would necessitate it, I like the implications for cheaper 4-bet bluffing. But I don't think it's at all the case that raising pot OTB can automatically be termed a bad play or whatever. Although we lose some defense against a light 3-bettor, we do end up playing a slightly larger pot in position when villain flat calls (which is obviously fine) and we get the pot bigger for when we want to 4-bet or call for value.