t9s on the button

[wrto4556 0]

Most players are your normal loose/passive players.5/10 (10 handed)<----I never realized how boring full handed games are.Preflop: I get delt T ,9 on the Button.Everyone folds to MP3 who limps, CO folds, I call, SB completes, BB checks.(anyone raise?)Flop: (4sb) Q ,9 , 5 (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, MP3 calls.Turn: (5BB) J (3 players)SB checks, MP3 bets, I raise...Look good so far?

[Dirtydutch 9]

I like it a lot

[cdddc75 0]

Call preflop, you want multiway action.I probably fold that flop. Didn't hit my hand hard enough in a four way pot. Since you raised it (better than calling), raising the turn is fine.

[wrto4556 0]

I probably fold that flop.

Quit yankin my chain.

[Dirtydutch 9]

I never fold 109s unless its the river and i don't even have a pair!109s its an unstopable powerhouse!

[CormacD 0]

I prolly dump it too. But that's cuz im weak/tight. Woe is me.

[econ_tim 0]

wrto, what do you put MP3 on? And what are you representing with the turn raise? Q-9?

[cdddc75 0]

I probably fold that flop.

Quit yankin my chain.

Actually, the way I've played the last two weeks, I probably donkcall that flop. At 5:1 though, I don't have enough outs to call if I'm behind. At a loose/passive table, I'm probably behind to a pair of queens if MP3 bet out the flop.

[wrto4556 0]

wow, maybe I should reevaluate.I might have the best hand. I have a BD flush draw and a BD straight draw with live nines and dirty tens as outs. Why would I want to fold?

[cdddc75 0]

wow, maybe I should reevaluate.I might have the best hand. I have a BD flush draw and a BD straight draw with live nines and dirty tens as outs. Why would I want to fold?

Missed the BD flush draw. Praise Allah for four colored online decks.

[CormacD 0]

wow, maybe I should reevaluate.I might have the best hand. I have a BD flush draw and a BD straight draw with live nines and dirty tens as outs. Why would I want to fold?

So you can come to my weak/tight party. It's gonna be a rager.

[wrto4556 0]

wrto, what do you put MP3 on? And what are you representing with the turn raise? Q-9?

MP3 could have lots of hands.Im not trying to represent anything. I think I have the best hand frequently and the times I don't, I have outs (plenty of them).

[wrto4556 0]

Cddd, calling the flop is our worst option. It's a raise or fold situation.What do you think about the turn raise after getting donkbet?

[Nutcracker 0]

The stop'n'go from a passive player almost always means improvement, and so you are behind, perhaps by a lot. I do like the raise though, may get you a free showdown. If 3-bet, I'd probably call him down at that point.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I probably fold that flop.

Quit yankin my chain.

MP3 could be betting that flop with almost anything.How likely do you think it is that you're ahead on the turn? I don't think knocking out the SB is worth it if you're behind, and MP3 won't fold a better hand than yours (at least, not any better hand that is limp-able). If MP3 is loose-passive, with his little stop-and-go I think the J probably helped him, so I'm thinking two pair, or JT/J8/QT/KJ, or even KT or T8 - so I would just call the turn and hope to catch.If he's ahead but not by much, the raise probably buys you a free showdown, but I don't think that by itself makes it worth it.But if you really think there's a good chance you're best on the turn, then I like the raise of course.

[wrto4556 0]

MR.NiceGuy,Even if my hand is the worst hand 70% of the time, isn't it still correct to raise?

[cdddc75 0]

Cddd, calling the flop is our worst option. It's a raise or fold situation.What do you think about the turn raise after getting donkbet?

Agree completely on the flop. That's why I said I would probably donkcall according to recent form. :oops: I like the turn raise. If villian does have just a pair of queens (which is my guess), you have a million outs for improving and you buy yourself a free showdown if you blank.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

MR.NiceGuy,Even if my hand is the worst hand 70% of the time, isn't it still correct to raise?

Absolutely - I'm just guessing it's probably more like 90% or more.Maybe AT, A8, 88, 98, or Kx limps preflop, bets the flop, and semibluffs the turn. But betting the turn after your flop raise is a fairly aggressive move even for these hands.That seems like a pretty scary board for a passive player to bet out on the turn with anything else that you're ahead of here.But I haven't played above 1/2 - so I won't pretend to know how likely guys at this limit are to make this move with a weak hand. I think the raise is good if you think you're better than MP3 at least 25-30% of the time.

[Guest]

MR.NiceGuy,Even if my hand is the worst hand 70% of the time, isn't it still correct to raise?

Unless you are sure the SB is coming along for the ride, no. You don't have enough pot equity IMO. How is putting in 50% of the money with only a 30% chance to win a good thing? You should definitely call, but I don't like the raise.The stop and go just screams to me that you're behind in the hand. I just don't see how you're ahead at this point in the hand and you could be WAY behind vs. hands like Q10. I think you have to improve to win so raising is bad, you're draw isn't that big.I would bet the MP3 has something like QJ or Q10 and when a flush card didn't come and his hand improved he figures he's still ahead and doesn't want to give you a free card if you're on the flush draw. The only other hand I could see playing this way that doesn't just have you trounced (like a set) is A10 of hearts since he would now have an OESD, one over and the nut flush draw which is huge.The only other hands I see Mp3 having that would play this way is KQo (I'm assuming he would reraise with KQ of hearts or a set on the flop) with a small chance of 10JoI think the SB is on the flush draw though and MP3 is betting a made hand better than yours. In this case the SB is going to see the river and it dirties your outs.Suppose the SB folds AND:MP3 has Q J you have 3 K 3 8 and 2 9 to win for 8 outs or about 18% equity in the pot.Conclusion: callMP3 has Q 10 : you have 2 9 to win, 3 K to split, 3 8 to split for a total of 11% equity in the pot.Conclusion: Fold, you're not getting the right odds to chase the split.MP3 has QJo: you have 4 K, 4 8, 2 9 to win for 10 outs or 23% equityConclusion: callMP3 has Q10o: you have 2 9 to win, 4 K to split, 4 8 to split or 14% equityConclusion:Borderline call with fold being reasonable as wellMP3 has A 10 : you have to avoid him improving to beat you. This happens with non-heart, non-K, non-A cards a split with non-heart 8's so opponent has about 17 outs to win leaving you 27 or 61% equityConclusion: Raise til the cows come home.MP3 has KQo: you have 3 K, 2 9, 4 8 or 7 outs to win or 16% equityConclusion: Call but it's borderlineMP3 has 10Jo: you have 2 9 to win, 4 K, 4 8 to split for 6 outs or 14% equityConclusion:Borderline call with fold being reasonable as wellI'm not sure what else you could be up against that doesn't have you in major trouble so the raise would be good. You should definitely call on the turn but raising seems like chip spewing.To the other posters about raising for a free showdown. How does this help? You're still going to put in 2 bets to see the showdown if you call turn call river UI or raise turn check river UI. You put in 3 if you call turn raise river if you improve, or raise turn bet river if you improve. However, it adds the chance that you would have to pay 3 to see the showdown if you raise turn and are bet into on the river or 3-bet on the turn.I think it's very unlikely you're ahead here and you could be dead to 2 outs for a win and 6 more for a split worst case. At best, all of your outs are clean which only yields 4 K, 3 10, 2 9, 4 8 for 13 outs to improve which I find highly unlikely is the case (MP3 would have to have AA for this to be the case)Zara

[Guest]

Cddd, calling the flop is our worst option. It's a raise or fold situation.What do you think about the turn raise after getting donkbet?

Agree completely on the flop. That's why I said I would probably donkcall according to recent form. :oops: I like the turn raise. If villian does have just a pair of queens (which is my guess), you have a million outs for improving and you buy yourself a free showdown if you blank.

Against most Q hands, you DON'T have a million outs though. The most likely Q hands that limp are Q9-QK if they're passive, and these have you to as few outs as 2 for a win (if against Q10) with more for a split (see previous post for full explanation)While possible, I have a hard time believing someone would limp with Q7 or worse here so all of your outs are live at which point you only have 13, not enough for a raise.Zara

[Randy Reed 0]

MR.NiceGuy,Even if my hand is the worst hand 70% of the time, isn't it still correct to raise?

Unless you are sure the SB is coming along for the ride, no. You don't have enough pot equity IMO. How is putting in 50% of the money with only a 30% chance to win a good thing? You should definitely call, but I don't like the raise.The stop and go just screams to me that you're behind in the hand. I just don't see how you're ahead at this point in the hand and you could be WAY behind vs. hands like Q10. I think you have to improve to win so raising is bad, you're draw isn't that big.I would bet the MP3 has something like QJ or Q10 and when a flush card didn't come and his hand improved he figures he's still ahead and doesn't want to give you a free card if you're on the flush draw. The only other hand I could see playing this way that doesn't just have you trounced (like a set) is A10 of hearts since he would now have an OESD, one over and the nut flush draw which is huge.The only other hands I see Mp3 having that would play this way is KQo (I'm assuming he would reraise with KQ of hearts or a set on the flop) with a small chance of 10JoI think the SB is on the flush draw though and MP3 is betting a made hand better than yours. In this case the SB is going to see the river and it dirties your outs.Suppose the SB folds AND:MP3 has Q J you have 3 K 3 8 and 2 9 to win for 8 outs or about 18% equity in the pot.Conclusion: callMP3 has Q 10 : you have 2 9 to win, 3 K to split, 3 8 to split for a total of 11% equity in the pot.Conclusion: Fold, you're not getting the right odds to chase the split.MP3 has QJo: you have 4 K, 4 8, 2 9 to win for 10 outs or 23% equityConclusion: callMP3 has Q10o: you have 2 9 to win, 4 K to split, 4 8 to split or 14% equityConclusion:Borderline call with fold being reasonable as wellMP3 has A 10 : you have to avoid him improving to beat you. This happens with non-heart, non-K, non-A cards a split with non-heart 8's so opponent has about 17 outs to win leaving you 27 or 61% equityConclusion: Raise til the cows come home.MP3 has KQo: you have 3 K, 2 9, 4 8 or 7 outs to win or 16% equityConclusion: Call but it's borderlineMP3 has 10Jo: you have 2 9 to win, 4 K, 4 8 to split for 6 outs or 14% equityConclusion:Borderline call with fold being reasonable as wellI'm not sure what else you could be up against that doesn't have you in major trouble so the raise would be good. You should definitely call on the turn but raising seems like chip spewing.To the other posters about raising for a free showdown. How does this help? You're still going to put in 2 bets to see the showdown if you call turn call river UI or raise turn check river UI. You put in 3 if you call turn raise river if you improve, or raise turn bet river if you improve. However, it adds the chance that you would have to pay 3 to see the showdown if you raise turn and are bet into on the river or 3-bet on the turn.I think it's very unlikely you're ahead here and you could be dead to 2 outs for a win and 6 more for a split worst case. At best, all of your outs are clean which only yields 4 K, 3 10, 2 9, 4 8 for 13 outs to improve which I find highly unlikely is the case (MP3 would have to have AA for this to be the case)Zara

Nice analysis.I didn't like the turn raise either, when he bet out, I just think he'll call down in any case if not reraise so you have to improve to win. I don't know how you could think you have the best hand here either, I definately call here, I don't think you have enough fold equity with the raise. But hey, if it hits you gain an extra bet.

[wrto4556 0]

How is putting in 50% of the money with only a 30% chance to win a good thing?

If I have the best hand 20% of the time then my equity is goot. If the SB comes in, it's even better.I think you're giving too much credit to the donkbettor. He could be doing this with a flush draw, a worse 9, 88, and other garbage.

[Guest]

How is putting in 50% of the money with only a 30% chance to win a good thing?

If I have the best hand 20% of the time then my equity is goot. If the SB comes in, it's even better.I think you're giving too much credit to the donkbettor. He could be doing this with a flush draw, a worse 9, 88, and other garbage.

If they're doing this kind of stuff, how is the table passive? Loose I can see, but how is that passive? That's where I'm coming from for my analysis. If the table wasn't passive, you can give the bettor a much wider array of hands where you could have the best hand at the moment which can justify the raise.Zara