can folding pocket kings pre-flop be justified?

[Rocketwadster 0]

A little background - currently in the midst of a huge slump, both in ring games and in tourneys (tourneys - 6 straight missing the money, four 4th place finishes, two 5th place finishes). Down to 4 players. BB calls with anything (even big all-in raises), UTG is extremly tight, CO had gone all-in many times the last two or three laps.Game #647528903: Texas Hold'em No Limit (200/400) - 2005/05/18 - 11:17:37 (ET)Table "STT1 603169 - 1" Seat 9 is the button. Seat 3: Rocketwad (2707 in chips)Seat 6: shapey (3569 in chips)Seat 8: colly1234 (2184 in chips)Seat 9: Harry.H (1540 in chips)Rocketwad: posts small blind 200shapey: posts big blind 400----- HOLE CARDS -----dealt to Rocketwad [Kh Kd]colly1234: raises to 800Harry.H: raises to 1540 and is all-inRocketwad ??????Facing a raise (from tighty-whitey) and a re-raise (loosey-goosey), with a savage who has me covered still to act after me, can a fold be justified here? :think:

[Swift_Psycho 1]

No, not with those blinds.

[BeanGW 0]

Facing a raise (from tighty-whitey) and a re-raise (loosey-goosey), with a savage who has me covered still to act after me, can a fold be justified here? :think:

I would raise it up another 600, so that tighty would have to go all in. A raise, and two reraises might be enough to push out the crazy BB. Tighty will have to consider going all in... and unless he has A-A, he'd probably fold.Even if Colly's does have A-A, calls your all-in move, and he wins, Harry is out, and you're guaranteed 3rd. If Harry's got the best hand, and your second, you get the cash from your side pot with Colly who's knocked out and you're still guaranteed the money. If you win, you move up big time.Am i making any sense here????? I'm a little hyped up on cold medicine...

[cdddc75 0]

Easiest. Push. This week.

[Petoria 0]

Even I think you have to call here, and I hate KK. Think of it this way: The OR could have many different hands, the next person in is short-stacked and he's getting a good price. So it's also very possible that he has a wide variety of hands. KK is usually only foldable in tournaments when everyone in the pot has a decent sized stack relative to the blinds, or you need to make the money.

[Mr Monkey 0]

cant fold KK in that situation

[cdddc75 0]

In case any of you don't understand why this is a push, look at the chipstacks. The UTG min-raiser is almost certain to call a push.Why would anyone NOT push KK here?

[Rocketwadster 0]

or you need to make the money.Exactly why I asked the question (as I indicated I am in a slump and desperately wanted to make it to the money). I have been playing to win lately (which has only hurt me - look at all the fourth place finishes).

[cdddc75 0]

or you need to make the money.Exactly why I asked the question (as I indicated I am in a slump and desperately wanted to make it to the money). I have been playing to win lately (which has only hurt me - look at all the fourth place finishes).

Do you honestly think the min-raiser is folding to your push? If not, you're making the money.

[krup24 0]

PUSH IT WHAT R U WAITING FOR AA?

[Rocketwadster 0]

It is not that I was waiting for a specific hand, but rather my position at the table. My thinking here was if I fold, I am almost certain to make the money, but if I push I will either make second/first or be out of the money. Is a certainty to make the money >>>> coming in 1st/2nd or missing by one spot again?Anyone care to know what actually happened?

[cdddc75 0]

It is not that I was waiting for a specific hand, but rather my position at the table. My thinking here was if I fold, I am almost certain to make the money, but if I push I will either make second/first or be out of the money. Is a certainty to make the money >>>> coming in 1st/2nd or missing by one spot again?Anyone care to know what actually happened?

If you really believe that the min-raiser is going to fold to your push, then call. He was stupid enough to min-raise in that spot...anything's possible.Folding is a terrible idea.I'd like to know how the rest of the preflop stuff played out. The final results...meh.

[BeanGW 0]

It is not that I was waiting for a specific hand, but rather my position at the table. My thinking here was if I fold, I am almost certain to make the money, but if I push I will either make second/first or be out of the money. Is a certainty to make the money >>>> coming in 1st/2nd or missing by one spot again?Anyone care to know what actually happened?

Rocket... it seems to me that the only conceivable way that you would be out of the money on this hand would be if the loosey reraiser has the best hand, and you are all-in against the BB who has the second best hand and wins the side pot.Otherwise, the loosey reraiser is out, and you come in at least third. With KK this is a chance I'd be willing to take. It is a definite push.

[Rocketwadster 0]

As soon as I clicked the FOLD button, I regretted it. Looking back, regardless of what had happened in the past (meaning my past SNG results of the last week or so), I definately should have pushed in this situation.After I folded, the BB folded as well (which surprised me greatly based on his past play), the min-raiser called.----- FLOP ----- [Ac Qd 7h]Breathed a sigh of relief, as any ace would have beaten my kings.----- TURN ----- [Ac Qd 7h][Kc]Ah crap.----- RIVER ----- [Ac Qd 7h Kc][3d]----- SHOW DOWN -----Harry.H: shows [Jc Ah] (A Pair of Aces, King high)colly1234: shows [Ad 8c] (A Pair of Aces, King high)Harry.H collected 3680 from Main potStupid stupid stupid. :oops:

[Guest]

Calling sucks, folding sucks worse, no point to any manner of min raise. You have an IDEAL situation there....a short stack moving in over a raise, probably with an Ax or low PP, though he could've struck gold. Colly could've open raised with any strong holding, since getting the blinds is huge at this point and no one can afford to wait. Your all in will most likely get you 400 dead from the BB, and might get Colly to lay down since it's bubble time, getting you heads up for 2-1 on your money with KK. COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Anyone care to know what actually happened?

I know you already showed the results, and regardless of what happened, it doesn't change the correct play. Folding pre-flop is absolutely horrendous. It's not even close.

[JaysonWeber 0]

I'm still Waiting for a Situation where I fold KK Pre-Flop.. Hasn't happened yet... Don't do it, it's -EV!

[ClaytonN 0]

Push. It isn't close.Heck, I would push this with much smaller blinds.

[ClaytonN 0]

I'm still Waiting for a Situation where I fold KK Pre-Flop.. Hasn't happened yet... Don't do it, it's -EV!

You should only fold KK in two scenarios:1) When you are chopping away at other people's stacks in a bubble situation in a tournament, and knocking someone out with KK will end the bubble and resume normal play2) When you're facing resistance from a very large stack and you have a ton of chips in a satellite and you have a >95% chance of getting your entry seat by folding in.