12 replies to this topic

[uplate]

This hand is from my session tonight at the local casino.

The game is $2/$3 NL with a $180 max buyin. The standard is generally horrible, especially on a Saturday night when the drunks and the gamblers come in. Lots of loose passive play (e.g. playing 9 handed, 7 limpers - someone pops it to say $15 there will regularly be 4-5 callers).

Villain looks and acts like he knows what he's doing. Sat down not long ago - took down his first hand with big raises pre-flop and on the flop. He is next to me and while I haven't played a hand beyond the flop while he has been there, I think that he knows that I am not a complete donk.

Stacks:

Hero:about $220
Villain about $300

The hand (7 handed I think):

Hero is Button, Villain in Cut-off.

Hero is dealt J Q

3 limpers. Villain limps, Hero limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop (Pot $18): J 8 4

Checks to Hero. Hero bets $20. Folds to Villain. Villain Calls.

Turn (Pot $58): 8

Villain checks. Hero checks.

River (Pot $58): 3

Villain bets $55. Hero ???


Comments on all streets appreciated.

Thanks.

[LJB723]

If villain doesn't have you pegged as a calling station then he could make this play with AdXx or something similar. He could have an 8. I don't think he's ever full or flushed here though. With everyman and his dog seeing the flop he'd surely bet it if flopped a flush, and definately with a (very unlikely) set.

I'm pretty polarised to an 8 or a lone diamond bluff. Tough spot, but I fold.

Also, this game's structure sucks.

[Shane L]

Could be a busted flush draw

[BaseJester]

This hand is from my session tonight at the local casino.

The game is $2/$3 NL with a $180 max buyin. The standard is generally horrible, especially on a Saturday night when the drunks and the gamblers come in. Lots of loose passive play (e.g. playing 9 handed, 7 limpers - someone pops it to say $15 there will regularly be 4-5 callers).

Villain looks and acts like he knows what he's doing. Sat down not long ago - took down his first hand with big raises pre-flop and on the flop. He is next to me and while I haven't played a hand beyond the flop while he has been there, I think that he knows that I am not a complete donk.

Stacks:

Hero:about $220
Villain about $300

The hand (7 handed I think):

Hero is Button, Villain in Cut-off.

Hero is dealt J Q

3 limpers. Villain limps, Hero limps, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop (Pot $18): J 8 4

Checks to Hero. Hero bets $20. Folds to Villain. Villain Calls.

I think there's an argument for checking through on the flop, because of the large number of players seeing the flop.

From what we know so far, we have a reasonable chance for having the best hand (e.g., betting K T out of the pot is better than letting it draw free) but there are looming reverse implied odds any time we are called or raised. This is not a hand to play a big pot with, and betting makes the pot big.

Turn (Pot $58): 8

Villain checks. Hero checks.

River (Pot $58): 3

Villain bets $55. Hero ???

I think we should pay this off on the end. I agree with the other posters that he's unlikely to have a full house here: JJ likely raises the limpers, there's only 1 combination of 88 to consider, leaving only 44 or J8s. If the villain has a non-nut flush, he's taking a big chance and missing value by slow-playing the flop against all of those opponents.

So, as has been pointed out, A X makes up enough of his range that calling is probably profitable.

[mtdesmoines]

This hand is from my session tonight at the local casino.... The standard is generally horrible, especially on a Saturday night when the drunks and the gamblers come in. Lots of loose passive play (e.g. playing 9 handed, 7 limpers - someone pops it to say $15 there will regularly be 4-5 callers).

Villain looks and acts like he knows what he's doing. Sat down not long ago - took down his first hand with big raises pre-flop and on the flop. He is next to me and while I haven't played a hand beyond the flop while he has been there, I think that he knows that I am not a complete donk.

1. this is a good game.
2. this hand is a fold prob

[Footballguru]

i would call. There are very few 8's he calls with on the flop.

[TAGteam]

i would call. There are very few 8's he calls with on the flop.

like Ad8s?

[DonkSlayer]

1. this is a good game.
2. this hand is a fold prob

I concur.

My grandfather lives 20 mins away from an indian casino that spread a 2/5 200max game. I have wet dreams about it all year long.

[suicideking]

Yeah, you called and lost right? 4 8 off?

[uplate]

Yeah, you called and lost right? 4 8 off?

no i though about it for a bit and let it go.

the thing that has really got me thinking about the hand was the bet size on the turn. how often does a made hand bet the pot here? On reflection, it screamed to me that it was a bet that did not really want a call.

what level thinking do you give someone with a brain at the table? If I give him credit for putting me on top pair, ok kicker, on this bet, is he telling me:

1. i have a made hand.
2. i don't have a made hand, but you can't call a pot sized bet on a scary board.
3. i have a made hand, but you won't think I have a made hand because this is more than a value bet, so you will call and lose.

With a reasonable thinking player and no history playing each other, I think that 2 is most likely and probably justified a call. The bet is too big for 1 (a $30 bet might be more suspicious) and I think 3 is just one level of thinking too many.

does this thinking make sense or should i stick to nitiness and keep the variance down?

(and yeah, the game is soft (adelaide casino - australia). just have to stay patient and make a hand, cos you can't make 'em fold)

[Footballguru]

like Ad8s?

yes that is in his range, obv. But what else is? I say his range is all Adxx, and 8x happens to be one of those xx. I say he makes this bet with all Adxx hands.

[SpatsJ]

1. i have a made hand.
2. i don't have a made hand, but you can't call a pot sized bet on a scary board.
3. i have a made hand, but you won't think I have a made hand because this is more than a value bet, so you will call and lose.

i dunno. you've seen him take down a pot with a large raise, and it seems that he has a good read on you. i think its prob # 2 as well but unfortunately, he's right. this time, being in first position worked for him. i think your only other option is to fold, but i don't like that play with this board and this player. its the right move to fold.

[Aces Rule]

no i though about it for a bit and let it go.

the thing that has really got me thinking about the hand was the bet size on the turn. how often does a made hand bet the pot here? On reflection, it screamed to me that it was a bet that did not really want a call.

what level thinking do you give someone with a brain at the table? If I give him credit for putting me on top pair, ok kicker, on this bet, is he telling me:

1. i have a made hand.
2. i don't have a made hand, but you can't call a pot sized bet on a scary board.
3. i have a made hand, but you won't think I have a made hand because this is more than a value bet, so you will call and lose.With a reasonable thinking player and no history playing each other, I think that 2 is most likely and probably justified a call. The bet is too big for 1 (a $30 bet might be more suspicious) and I think 3 is just one level of thinking too many.

does this thinking make sense or should i stick to nitiness and keep the variance down?

(and yeah, the game is soft (adelaide casino - australia). just have to stay patient and make a hand, cos you can't make 'em fold)

When you ck-thru on the Turn villian should have read that you were suspcious of his call on the flop and were either scared of a made flush or of the 2nd 8 on the Turn so are shutting down b/c you only have a modest hand (likely TP) and are not willing to put much if any more into the pot thus hoping to ck it thru to showdown. This of course open the gates wide open for your #2 above. A made flush or set more likely should recognize the ck-thru on the Turn as weakness and made a more tempting value be of less than 1/2 pot to suck out anther bet from you.

For #3 to work, you would have had to show more strengh on the turn either as a value bet or to protect against a 4th diamond - IMO. I have been victim and witness to some pretty good players make this over-bet play against opps who they read as "not complete donks" but more importantly had a "will not be pushed off the pot" ego! Works often enough to risk losing the target all together.

I don't mind the ck-thru on the Turn in keeping with the "small hand - small pot" therem and I don't think the laydown was all that bad either although the huge bet sure smells of a missed flush draw bluff. Your new problem is finding a simular situation where you have to stand up and call with a marginal hand to keep this villian and everyone else at the table from running all over you with pot stealing bluffs.