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#61 antistuff

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Posted 29 March 2009 - 06:56 PM

View PostTheDonk1989, on Sunday, March 29th, 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

First, What subtle things will I be missing? I'd really want to know... I know how to play the game, I'm not a beginner.Second, I dont need to back up anything. It seems like I'm doing better when I'm playing more tables. You have no idea. This wasn't a fact that was stated, I said I seem like I do better. I can say anything that I want about what I feel...Third, What's your online name and what site do you play on?
i have an account on pretty much every site that allows americans and i use this name everywhere. i mostly play on FTP but have been playing on stars more and more lately. i can't fathom why you would want to know this but i make it a point not to hide my names so whatever.when people post in the strat forums here they do so looking for ideas, critique, and criticism from others. i'm not sure what your looking for but i don't feel like engaging in any sort of discusion with somebody who takes your tone. besides, whats there to talk about? you know everything. i should be asking you for advice.there is a reason the best posters stopped posting here. i didn't really get it until just now. thanks for the epiphany, i owe you one.
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#62 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:00 AM

View Postantistuff, on Sunday, March 29th, 2009, 9:56 PM, said:

i have an account on pretty much every site that allows americans and i use this name everywhere. i mostly play on FTP but have been playing on stars more and more lately. i can't fathom why you would want to know this but i make it a point not to hide my names so whatever.when people post in the strat forums here they do so looking for ideas, critique, and criticism from others. i'm not sure what your looking for but i don't feel like engaging in any sort of discusion with somebody who takes your tone. besides, whats there to talk about? you know everything. i should be asking you for advice.there is a reason the best posters stopped posting here. i didn't really get it until just now. thanks for the epiphany, i owe you one.
I'm not acting like I know everything. I'm wondering what things I'll be missing when I'm playing at 10 tables. You can't name some for me?You dont need to pick at every little thing I say also like, when I said I seem to do better when I'm playing more tables. It's just that you've said my bankroll management was wrong and that I shouldn't be multitabling when you don't know what my plays like. When I asked what I would be missing when I'm not multitabling you couldnt name any.Just a thought.~Thanks for posting
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#63 Acekob

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:35 AM

View PostTheDonk1989, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 2:00 PM, said:

I'm not acting like I know everything. I'm wondering what things I'll be missing when I'm playing at 10 tables. You can't name some for me?You dont need to pick at every little thing I say also like, when I said I seem to do better when I'm playing more tables. It's just that you've said my bankroll management was wrong and that I shouldn't be multitabling when you don't know what my plays like. When I asked what I would be missing when I'm not multitabling you couldnt name any.Just a thought.~Thanks for posting
Multitabling is fine when it comes to grinding and playing to earn, but it seems like all the good/pro players agrees that it wont help your game much. You adapt a robotic style of play, making the +EV moves without risking too much, and without analyzing the play at your table. Many use pokertracker as a substitue, but yet again, it might help your winning rate, but it isn't really helping you to get better at poker (i think).GL on your challenge, I'm doing something similar as well, started with 3$.

#64 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 02:21 PM

View PostAcekob, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 8:35 AM, said:

Multitabling is fine when it comes to grinding and playing to earn, but it seems like all the good/pro players agrees that it wont help your game much. You adapt a robotic style of play, making the +EV moves without risking too much, and without analyzing the play at your table. Many use pokertracker as a substitue, but yet again, it might help your winning rate, but it isn't really helping you to get better at poker (i think).GL on your challenge, I'm doing something similar as well, started with 3$.
When developing a robotic style of play it just means that you instantly know what to do given the current situation and current hand.I am seeing more hands, which means I am getting more experience. Example: I am seeing more flops so I am learning what flops are safe to bet at and what are not. Example: I am picking up general betting patterns; Why is he betting pot with a board of 7 2 4 rainbow? Why did he bet and only call my raise when there is a potential flush draw? Why is he check raising me with? Etc, etc, etc... There are way more examples. I am deffinately analyzing when I play poker, you can't play poker without analyzing anything or else I would be losing... I also remember past hands with a certain person; did he lose a big pot and is tilted? Last time he called my bluff, what does he think I have now? So I am still paying attention to my opponents play, maybe some can't do that when they are multitabling and I can? I may not be focusing on my opponents as much but that doesn't mean I'm not improving my game. That makes no sense to say that.It's like saying: "You played 1700 hands but during those hands you didn't learn ANYTHING new and your not developing."Don't take this in a wrong tone. I'm just saying why I think multitabling is helping me improve my game.~Thanks for reading
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#65 Acekob

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 02:36 PM

Hey I'm just saying what I've heard/read other places.Think it was Daniel who spoke about it on pokerroad some time ago.Shouldnt really get into any discussion about this as I dont have the experience to tell anyone they're wrong =[

#66 antistuff

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 03:58 PM

View PostTheDonk1989, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 6:21 PM, said:

When developing a robotic style of play it just means that you instantly know what to do given the current situation and current hand.I am seeing more hands, which means I am getting more experience. Example: I am seeing more flops so I am learning what flops are safe to bet at and what are not. Example: I am picking up general betting patterns; Why is he betting pot with a board of 7 2 4 rainbow? Why did he bet and only call my raise when there is a potential flush draw? Why is he check raising me with? Etc, etc, etc... There are way more examples. I am deffinately analyzing when I play poker, you can't play poker without analyzing anything or else I would be losing... I also remember past hands with a certain person; did he lose a big pot and is tilted? Last time he called my bluff, what does he think I have now? So I am still paying attention to my opponents play, maybe some can't do that when they are multitabling and I can? I may not be focusing on my opponents as much but that doesn't mean I'm not improving my game. That makes no sense to say that.It's like saying: "You played 1700 hands but during those hands you didn't learn ANYTHING new and your not developing."Don't take this in a wrong tone. I'm just saying why I think multitabling is helping me improve my game.~Thanks for reading
it means can't know all the factors involved in the current situation if you are playing 9 tables. you are playing each hand in a vacuum. the hands that you aren't involved in also count (among other things). yea, you are getting enough information to beat the stakes you are playing. but there is a ton of information you are missing.
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#67 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:51 PM

View Postantistuff, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 6:58 PM, said:

it means can't know all the factors involved in the current situation if you are playing 9 tables. you are playing each hand in a vacuum. the hands that you aren't involved in also count (among other things). yea, you are getting enough information to beat the stakes you are playing. but there is a ton of information you are missing.
I'm not bashing you at all. I just have a few comments on what you've said. The things you say I am missing, I may not be missing entirely. I'm still paying attention to my opponents even without a hand. I'm not completely just going off of what I have and the strength of my hand. I'm making plays and making the right reads. It seems that you assume that I'm not doing any of what i've said. Thanks for your input, I've taken it into consideration. I believe that multitabling is the correct choice for me building my bankroll. ~Thanks for reading
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#68 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:55 PM

View PostAcekob, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 5:36 PM, said:

Hey I'm just saying what I've heard/read other places.Think it was Daniel who spoke about it on pokerroad some time ago.Shouldnt really get into any discussion about this as I dont have the experience to tell anyone they're wrong =[
I agree with you that it does take away from my focus and my reading ability but that doesnt mean it does nothing good for my game.The best way to improve your game is to... play poker. The more hands you play the more experience you get and the more knowledge you have to help you make tough decisions. Multitabling is deffinately not a bad thing.
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#69 Shark527

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:01 PM

View PostTheDonk1989, on Sunday, March 29th, 2009, 7:30 PM, said:

There is no deffinate answer to this. You are the only one that can answer this. Do you think that you can focus when playing 10 tables?Some people can play 20+ tables at a time while others can only play 2. You have to find the correct number of tables to play that will give you the greatest profit. In time you will be able to add more tables. I can't tell you to just play 1 or 2 tables because I have no idea what your play is like and what your capable of doing.~thanks for the reply
Yes, you can make more profit by multitabling but what I'm asking is how many tables in general can you play and still follow the action? Whenever I'm over 4-6 tables, it becomes more of a "I raised pre I better c-bet, or I flopped nothing and he bet so I fold" More advanced strategies are lost in the flurry of new tables actions always popping up.

View Postantistuff, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 4:58 PM, said:

it means can't know all the factors involved in the current situation if you are playing 9 tables. you are playing each hand in a vacuum. the hands that you aren't involved in also count (among other things). yea, you are getting enough information to beat the stakes you are playing. but there is a ton of information you are missing.
This backs up my point. It is good you are confident in your abilities to play 9 tables, but focus IS lost at some point the more tables you play. Actions become more automatic, this is just a simple fact of multitabling.
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#70 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:03 PM

I played for about an hour and a half. I ran really bad, aces cracked a few times, and I had set vs. set (I had the smaller set lol).I lost a little more than a dollar. I got my $50 bonus, bringing my bankroll up to $307. My next session I will try 10nl, 9 tables instead of 12. If I lose at this level I will jump down again and build it back to $300.
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#71 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:11 PM

View PostShark527, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 8:01 PM, said:

Yes, you can make more profit by multitabling but what I'm asking is how many tables in general can you play and still follow the action? Whenever I'm over 4-6 tables, it becomes more of a "I raised pre I better c-bet, or I flopped nothing and he bet so I fold" More advanced strategies are lost in the flurry of new tables actions always popping up.This backs up my point. It is good you are confident in your abilities to play 9 tables, but focus IS lost at some point the more tables you play. Actions become more automatic, this is just a simple fact of multitabling.
I've agreed with the fact that you lose focus and to some extent the ability to read. For me it becomes: "I raised pre, he checked to me, last time he check folded to my c bet, and the flop has no draws." I do do this too though: "I flopped nothing and he bet so I fold." but sometimes its: "I flopped nothing and he bet, hes aggressive so I'll see if I can call with nothing and make a play later, or just 3 bet him right now and take it down." I agree that multitabling takes away from focusing and reading people but I still think that you can learn and improve your game by playing multitables.
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#72 Jam-Fly

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 05:48 PM

playing more tables increases your hourly rate, however, your win rate on each additional table decreases. what anti-stuff is trying to say is that playing 1 or 2 table with a very high win rate is more beneficial to learning rather than playing 9 tables with a reasonable win rate. You will learn the game better and understand the nuances better if you concentrate on playing less tables, it will mean you will improve your game faster. It's a long term investment, risk a little profit now so you can progress up the stakes ladder faster because you know the game better.You cannot deny that you learn the game better playing fewer tables as you can concentrate on a wide variety of things.
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#73 TheDonk1989

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 06:25 PM

View PostJam-Fly, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 8:48 PM, said:

playing more tables increases your hourly rate, however, your win rate on each additional table decreases. what anti-stuff is trying to say is that playing 1 or 2 table with a very high win rate is more beneficial to learning rather than playing 9 tables with a reasonable win rate. You will learn the game better and understand the nuances better if you concentrate on playing less tables, it will mean you will improve your game faster. It's a long term investment, risk a little profit now so you can progress up the stakes ladder faster because you know the game better.You cannot deny that you learn the game better playing fewer tables as you can concentrate on a wide variety of things.
I completely agree with what he is saying. I am aware of the fact that win rate drops with each table added. I agree with you also.I am curious though, what nuances will I understand better? I do concentrate on a lot of things in any hand that I am involved with, multitabling or not.
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#74 Shark527

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 06:45 PM

View PostJam-Fly, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 6:48 PM, said:

playing more tables increases your hourly rate, however, your win rate on each additional table decreases. what anti-stuff is trying to say is that playing 1 or 2 table with a very high win rate is more beneficial to learning rather than playing 9 tables with a reasonable win rate. You will learn the game better and understand the nuances better if you concentrate on playing less tables, it will mean you will improve your game faster. It's a long term investment, risk a little profit now so you can progress up the stakes ladder faster because you know the game better.You cannot deny that you learn the game better playing fewer tables as you can concentrate on a wide variety of things.
Do you think this would be more with NL/PLO games? How would multitabling compare to limit games?
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#75 Jam-Fly

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:16 PM

View PostShark527, on Tuesday, March 31st, 2009, 3:45 AM, said:

Do you think this would be more with NL/PLO games? How would multitabling compare to limit games?
tbh I've never really played limit cash games, but I'd imagine it'd be more to do with NL/PL games. In NLH/PLO, reading the opponent is very important in many hands, and reading skill comes from seeing hands your opponents play. Although there is reading in LHE, the game is alot more mechanical, so that is why I assume it would be easier/better/less-inconveniant to multi-table limit games rather than NL games.and to the OP...look, no one can make a one-stop post telling you what you miss out on by multi-tabling. There is so much you can learn/observe etc. from playing fewer tables (if your goal is to learn and improve, if your goal is to make money at low limits, continue multi-tabling). If you cannot see this, then honestly there is no point talking to you about it. One of dozens examples I can think of is this. When you get to higher stakes, alot of your money will made by making the right decision in big pots. Sometimes this will be a marginal bluff or a marginal call. At the lower stakes, you need not do this. You can make money playing tight, ABC poker, you will be put in very few marginal spots at the lower limits. Multi-tabling is fine here, because you can play ABC poker. However, you will never play much more than ABC poker. You must be able to learn the skills requires to make the big decisions at the higher stakes games. I don't see how you can learn these skills playing 9 tables.Remember OP, multi-tabling is a great thing, and personally if I was you, I'd probably keep multi-tabling until it didn't work for me anymore. However, I'm a short term thinker. What antistuff is saying is that in the long run, it's probably better to ease back on the number of tables you are playing. You will truly learn and experience the game better. If you play 10,000 hands while 4-tabling, those hands (although it will take you twice as long to play them) will teach you more than 10,000 hands 8-tabling. Also, maybe you are more advanced than we give you credit for, but based on what you've said, it seems that you're a relative beginner. That is not to say you don't play the game well, it's just that compared with other big multi-tablers, you are not as experienced.
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#76 TheDonk1989

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 01:35 PM

View PostJam-Fly, on Monday, March 30th, 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

tbh I've never really played limit cash games, but I'd imagine it'd be more to do with NL/PL games. In NLH/PLO, reading the opponent is very important in many hands, and reading skill comes from seeing hands your opponents play. Although there is reading in LHE, the game is alot more mechanical, so that is why I assume it would be easier/better/less-inconveniant to multi-table limit games rather than NL games.and to the OP...look, no one can make a one-stop post telling you what you miss out on by multi-tabling. There is so much you can learn/observe etc. from playing fewer tables (if your goal is to learn and improve, if your goal is to make money at low limits, continue multi-tabling). If you cannot see this, then honestly there is no point talking to you about it. One of dozens examples I can think of is this. When you get to higher stakes, alot of your money will made by making the right decision in big pots. Sometimes this will be a marginal bluff or a marginal call. At the lower stakes, you need not do this. You can make money playing tight, ABC poker, you will be put in very few marginal spots at the lower limits. Multi-tabling is fine here, because you can play ABC poker. However, you will never play much more than ABC poker. You must be able to learn the skills requires to make the big decisions at the higher stakes games. I don't see how you can learn these skills playing 9 tables.Remember OP, multi-tabling is a great thing, and personally if I was you, I'd probably keep multi-tabling until it didn't work for me anymore. However, I'm a short term thinker. What antistuff is saying is that in the long run, it's probably better to ease back on the number of tables you are playing. You will truly learn and experience the game better. If you play 10,000 hands while 4-tabling, those hands (although it will take you twice as long to play them) will teach you more than 10,000 hands 8-tabling. Also, maybe you are more advanced than we give you credit for, but based on what you've said, it seems that you're a relative beginner. That is not to say you don't play the game well, it's just that compared with other big multi-tablers, you are not as experienced.
Thanks for the input but don't make assumptions about how advanced my play is without seeing my play. All I said is that multitabling does help your play to some extent, which is does, I never said that it's better for my game then playing 1 or 2 tables. You have to agree that multitabling or not playing poker will help your play to some extent... I am aware that when multitabling I will miss some things, but those things I am already aware of. I know advanced plays and techniques, I am not a beginner. Please define to what you mean by relative beginner.Antistuff first brought this up randomly that I should only play 1 or 2 tables to give me more experience and to work on my game. I never said that I need to work on my game once during this post. Now everyone says that I am a beginner and need to work on my game. I am completely lost... This post is about me grinding my bankroll up to $1,000 from $50. It's turned into: TheDonk1989 shouldnt be multitabling because hes a beginner and needs to improve his game. Lets get off the subject of multitabling or not, because I have always been aware of the pros and cons of multitabling. My game is at a level to that I dont need to sit down at 1 or 2 tables to learn the game. Whenever I up stakes I normally sit at 1 or 2 games to begin with to get a feel for that level. Once I've done this I add tables as I go. Thanks for your posts but I know more than the basics of NL holdem, my game is at the level to which I can sit at multiple tables and make profit.~Thanks for reading
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#77 TheDonk1989

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 04:12 PM

I played a session of 10nl with 12 tables. I ran badly and lost a little less than a buy in and eventually grinded it back up.I was able to make profit at the end of this session. I seen so many terrible plays, I didn't see this at 5nl. It's strange how different the play isat 10nl as to 5nl
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#78 antistuff

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 07:30 PM

View PostTheDonk1989, on Tuesday, March 31st, 2009, 5:35 PM, said:

Thanks for the input but don't make assumptions about how advanced my play is without seeing my play. All I said is that multitabling does help your play to some extent, which is does, I never said that it's better for my game then playing 1 or 2 tables. You have to agree that multitabling or not playing poker will help your play to some extent... I am aware that when multitabling I will miss some things, but those things I am already aware of. I know advanced plays and techniques, I am not a beginner. Please define to what you mean by relative beginner.Antistuff first brought this up randomly that I should only play 1 or 2 tables to give me more experience and to work on my game. I never said that I need to work on my game once during this post. Now everyone says that I am a beginner and need to work on my game. I am completely lost... This post is about me grinding my bankroll up to $1,000 from $50. It's turned into: TheDonk1989 shouldnt be multitabling because hes a beginner and needs to improve his game. Lets get off the subject of multitabling or not, because I have always been aware of the pros and cons of multitabling. My game is at a level to that I dont need to sit down at 1 or 2 tables to learn the game. Whenever I up stakes I normally sit at 1 or 2 games to begin with to get a feel for that level. Once I've done this I add tables as I go. Thanks for your posts but I know more than the basics of NL holdem, my game is at the level to which I can sit at multiple tables and make profit.~Thanks for reading
if you can beat 1/2 nlhe online then why wouldn't you scrounge up $3k or so and make some very good money? somebody who beats four tables of that with a low winrate makes more money hourly than most of the population. do you have a job where you make 45k a year? because thats what youre looking at part time.there is so much money out there if you can win that everybody assumes that somebody who is playing as low as you are is not an "advanced player". even your average person with a career would be happy with the money they would make playing nl50 for ten hours a week (they would probably get a mortgage payment and a vacation out of it every year). so unless you are some random rich person playing for kicks it follows as a very safe assumption that you are not an expert. i also just gave you an example of the kind of reasoning you are going to miss out on playing 9 tables.
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#79 TheDonk1989

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 07:53 AM

I'm deffinately not an expert I just said that I wasn't a beginner.I'm trying to work my way up from $50 to those levels. Eventually when I get to the bigger games I won't be multitabling.I'm not gonna jump to 1/2 or 50nl without the proper bankroll, when I am able to then we'll see how it goes.-Thanks for the post
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#80 buffofspades

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:49 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Friday, March 20th, 2009, 10:35 PM, said:

Watch out, PLO can erase everything you've gained quicker than you gained it. It's such a high variance game that nobody plays it as a roll builder.
Yeah, hit this the hard way. About a week ago, I started to run cold and I was back south of $250. The bleeding's stopped, and I back around $300 again. I'm going to head back to NLHE (haven't decided if I'm going 6max or full ring, I also might play a smaller tournament this weekend), but the change was nice cause I was getting really bored. And when I get bored, I find I start playing WAAAAY too loose. Wish me luck!




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