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#21 suitedinc

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:15 AM

Like this is the first time something like has ever happened with an abortion procedure. Of course it has happened before. It has everything to do with the abortion debate becuase it happened in the act of aborting the pregnancy.

#22 Sal Paradise

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:19 AM

I should just point out that I am rabidly pro choice, think that abortions should be legal, subsidized, and encouraged. lets face it, the vast, vast majority of babies being aborted would end up being worthless drains on society just like their parents. I really don't know why I was trying to be argumentative.it still does seem weird to me, though, for people to use the "life starts at this point" argument to rationalize the legality of abortion. like, full lung function is a human, but without, just a fetus!
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#23 DonkSlayer

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:22 AM

1. I don't think it would've happened like this at most clinics..and I don't think this is a situation that really paralells the average abortion situation.2. Abortions will happen regardless of whether they're legal or not...and only the wealthiest will have medically-assisted ones if they're all made illegal.3. "Freedom of Choice" is an absolute strawman and really insignificant argument to the ethical/moral debate on abortion, imo...ending life (whether you consider it a baby or not) cannot come down to some sort of implied 14th amendment right, nor does the power to end life or the exclusive responsibility to support life for 9 months give anyone some sort of moral supercedence to end life on a mere "choice".
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#24 checkymcfold

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:05 AM

View PostSal Paradise, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 9:02 AM, said:

well by "don't sweat it" I assumed you meant that it wasn't a big deal to you, forgive me for my misunderstanding. but the article does have quite a bit to do with abortion procedures. it seems that the abortion was perfectly legal and acceptable as long as the baby was still inside the mother, but when it came out it was some horrible mistake to kill it. what changed in those couple minutes? that's the main point. is a baby not human until it actually leaves the mother's body?also, ignoring the facts presented in the article with the guise of it being poorly written seems a bit silly to me.
no worries re: misunderstanding. i actually care about shit a lot less than i seem to most often. as to the specifics of abortion, it all comes back to that arrogance thing i mentioned before, imo. i simply don't know enough about biology, sustainability of various stages of fetal development, medical procedures, or anything like that to assume that i could really offer anything that ought to materialize in public policy. personally, as i said, i would never advise anyone to get an abortion and would probably even offer to adopt the kid of someone close to me before advising her to have an abortion, but that doesn't change the fact that i don't think myself knowledgeable enough about everything involved to be able to EVER feel like i could make that final decision for someone else, or even to offer my opinion on the matter when it's not asked of me. all that i really know about abortion is that it's an unfathomably difficult decision, and i'd probably deserve to burn in some sort of hell if i ever tried to make that decision more difficult or more stressful for someone else. it strikes me far too often that the people who tend to be the most vehement in their stance with regard to abortion (that is, on either side) generally know nearly nothing about how various medical abortion procedures are undertaken, what sorts of medical aids are necessary for fetuses in various stages of development in order for them to "survive," etc.in general, i don't think that the public is well-served by people who don't know shit about something taking strong stances with regard to issues surrounding that something. whether it's ted stevens talking about the internet as a series of tubes, a fundamentalist zealot carrying a sign with a picture of a fetus on it, or a chick in dreads with a joint hanging out of her mouth yelling "keep your laws off my body!" without really understanding why she's saying it, it speaks to an anti-intellectual current that runs ugly and deep throughout america today, which is really the only thing i tend to care about in any sort of profound way these days. bad journalists, simplistic thinkers, political pundits, etc.--these are really the only things that piss me off anymore, beyond gutterballs spiking the river for 20BB pots. :)and donkslayer--that's all well and good, but unless you're willing to offer up a definition of life that we can all agree upon, #3 as you've formulated it doesn't really amount to anything.
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#25 Mercury69

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:37 AM

I ate a fetus for dinner last night. Fckn tasty with onions and a red wine reduction. Don't sweat the abortions, people. It's an alternative food source.
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#26 Loismustdie

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:48 AM

I suppose at it's core, abortion as a tactic is well meaning.
So much for a comeback.

#27 Mercury69

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:57 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM, said:

I suppose at it's core, abortion as a tactic is well meaning.
Just load 'em into catapults and fire them over a wall at your enemy...
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#28 CaneBrain

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:03 AM

oh god not this again.If you want to outlaw abortion, then you are telling all women over the age of 13 that if they get pregnant they are automatically locked in to carrying that baby to term no matter how much of a hardship that might be (and since we have basically 50 guys and one lady in this forum regularly it is silly to think that we can honestly understand those hardships).some people think hey too bad/tough crap. you had sex now you have a fetus inside you and the potential life of that fetus is so important that it justifies telling you what to do with your body for nine months.Both options are lousy.....and since I dont ever have to worry about getting pregnant I am going to go with whatever women want on this one. It is their bodies and they have more maternal instincts than me anyways. And the majority of women in this country (though not a large majority) want abortion to be legal in all states. I normally have no time for the Gloria Steinhams of the world but on this one I agree with the maxim that "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a constitutional right".
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#29 Loismustdie

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:06 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 9:03 AM, said:

oh god not this again.If you want to outlaw abortion, then you are telling all women over the age of 13 that if they get pregnant they are automatically locked in to carrying that baby to term no matter how much of a hardship that might be (and since we have basically 50 guys and one lady in this forum regularly it is silly to think that we can honestly understand those hardships).some people think hey too bad/tough crap. you had sex now you have a fetus inside you and the potential life of that fetus is so important that it justifies telling you what to do with your body for nine months.Both options are lousy.....and since I dont ever have to worry about getting pregnant I am going to go with whatever women want on this one. It is their bodies and they have more maternal instincts than me anyways. And the majority of women in this country (though not a large majority) want abortion to be legal in all states. I normally have no time for the Gloria Steinhams of the world but on this one I agree with the maxim that "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a constitutional right".
That's pretty spineless even for you.
So much for a comeback.

#30 Sal Paradise

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:06 AM

after about an hour of careful thought and consideration (read: 20 seconds of actual thought, 59 minutes and 40 seconds of jamming hardcore to the hold steady), I have come to realize that abortion is actually a wonderful free market mechanism to control populations. laizzes faire at its finest. discuss THAT bitches.
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#31 Loismustdie

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:06 AM

View PostMercury69, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 8:57 AM, said:

Just load 'em into catapults and fire them over a wall at your enemy...
Or dice em up and put em in ceviche. Either way we all win.
So much for a comeback.

#32 Mercury69

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:24 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

Or dice em up and put em in ceviche. Either way we all win.
I'm buying some limes after work...
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#33 DonkSlayer

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:33 AM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

and donkslayer--that's all well and good, but unless you're willing to offer up a definition of life that we can all agree upon, #3 as you've formulated it doesn't really amount to anything.
Come on, no one has "the" definition of life. I personally assign ranges, and hold to task others that have some sort of self-serving relativism when they try to define life or their own ranges.My range of intrinsic value tends to be rock<lowest forms of animated life<seeds<human zygote<higher forms of animals<inviable human fetus<viable fetus<malicious murdering human<just-born baby<relatively innocent human.That's just mine, but I would challenge someone who has liberal tendencies to justify having a bigger moral/ethical problem with eating domesticated animals than aborting a fetus that could be viable if delivered at the time.
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#34 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:52 AM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 7:37 AM, said:

but i don't think myself (quite) arrogant enough to presume that i knew enough about the world and life to be confident in making that decision for everyone, always and forever.
I agree with you totally here, none of us should presume we know enough to end a human life. Remember there are no rebuys, an abortion ends the only shot at life that person had.

View Postcheckymcfold, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 7:55 AM, said:

an abortion clinic and doctor made a horrific error (though not altogether different in kind from the more horrible malpractice cases
Could you explain what you find "horrific" about this. Are you saying this was horrific because it happened in a location a few feet different from where it was planned?
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#35 CaneBrain

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:55 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 9:06 AM, said:

That's pretty spineless even for you.
no it shows respect for women.I am sure we can add them to the list of people you dont respect (along with gays, blacks, immigrants, and Shawn Marion).I cant say when life starts and I have no idea how much of a hardship pregnancy is. So, I defer to people with a more vested interest in the problem.
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#36 El Guapo

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:57 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 8:55 AM, said:

no it shows respect for women.I am sure we can add them to the list of people you dont respect (along with gays, blacks, immigrants, and Shawn Marion).I cant say when life starts and I have no idea how much of a hardship pregnancy is. So, I defer to people with a more vested interest in the problem.
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#37 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:00 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

So, I defer to people with a more vested interest in the problem.
The baby?? I agree with everything you said except your conclusion. Life trumps Choice.
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#38 suitedinc

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:03 AM

View PostSal Paradise, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 8:06 AM, said:

after about an hour of careful thought and consideration (read: 20 seconds of actual thought, 59 minutes and 40 seconds of jamming hardcore to the hold steady), I have come to realize that abortion is actually a wonderful free market mechanism to control populations. laizzes faire at its finest. discuss THAT bitches.
Sure. The UNPC agrees with you. That is why the tax money we send abroad to "health clinics" is helping this organiztion to hold woman hostage until they abort their babies. Despite the fact that most of the world disagrees with abortion on a moral basis, the UN has brought it upon themselves to use it as population control, with the US tax payers dollars (at least now that Obama has signed the Exec Order).

#39 Balloon guy

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:07 AM

The law he broke was in not allowng the baby to fully die on the table before he put him in the trash.This is not an uncommon happening in late term abortions, born alive, left to die on a table.Never should have let women vote
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#40 CaneBrain

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:18 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 9:57 AM, said:

Have fun in Phoenix with LMD :club:
I dont even mind him that much and I bet I would like him if we hung out.He just knows how to really get me going.
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