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#41 FCP Bob

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:54 AM

View Posthblask, on Wednesday, February 4th, 2009, 2:41 PM, said:

This was the second story lately of someone dying in Japan from things that are routinely treated here. I wonder what the death toll needs to reach before people realize central planning doesn't work?
I think for all Western societies the coming years will be ones of rationing health care as no society is going to be able to pay for everything that everybody wants or in a lot of cases needs.In places like Canada and Japan the rationing results in waiting times and in this case a lack of emergency service and is spread over the entire population and not decided totally by somebodies economic situation.In the US the rationing takes the form of a large number of people having little of no health coverage while those who have the best coverage have the best care possible and for the most part the rationing is one of economics with those with the most money having the best care.No country is going to be able to keep spending more and more of it's GDP on healthcare forever and every country really needs to take it's ideological blinders off and come up with solutions that make sense for them. In Canada it would be impossible for our universal system to go back to a private insurance one and it's going to be very very hard for the US to move towards a Canadian or European system even if it is the best one which is another debate since the health care cultures are so different.
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#42 CaneBrain

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:56 AM

good timing for the purposes of this argument: http://news.yahoo.co...ildren_s_healthbasically, it sounds like everyone likes sCHIP but the GOP wants to restrict access to people who they believe CANT get private insurance under any circumstances. they estimate of the 4 million kids covered under this bill that 2.4 million of them could have gotten private insurance instead. if I am following the argument right that means the GOP believes it is better to make the lower middle class pay for their own kids insurance in the private sector rather than making the taxpayers as a whole pay for 2.4 million kids to get free health insurance coverage through the government. Discuss.
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#43 El Guapo

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:10 PM

Quote

Income too high for welfare but too low for private health care.
Huh? I have Kaiser for my Kids with all the bells and whistles. It is $100 a month for each individually, but as a family we have gotten it down to $460 a month for all four of us. I don't understand these statements. I could go get health insurance on my kids tomorrow for $60 a month or less. That is a cell phone bill.

#44 hblask

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:26 PM

View PostCaneBrain, on Wednesday, February 4th, 2009, 1:56 PM, said:

good timing for the purposes of this argument: http://news.yahoo.co...ildren_s_healthbasically, it sounds like everyone likes sCHIP but the GOP wants to restrict access to people who they believe CANT get private insurance under any circumstances. they estimate of the 4 million kids covered under this bill that 2.4 million of them could have gotten private insurance instead. if I am following the argument right that means the GOP believes it is better to make the lower middle class pay for their own kids insurance in the private sector rather than making the taxpayers as a whole pay for 2.4 million kids to get free health insurance coverage through the government.Discuss.
It seems obvious beyond controversy that if someone CAN get private insurance they should, rather than pass the cost on to strangers. I'm not sure why this is even a question.If you are wondering whether a tax on the poor (cigarette taxes) to pay for health care for upper-middle class kids is fair or moral, my vote would be no, it's not.
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#45 strategy

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 03:06 PM

View PostEl Guapo, on Wednesday, February 4th, 2009, 2:10 PM, said:

Huh? I have Kaiser for my Kids with all the bells and whistles. It is $100 a month for each individually, but as a family we have gotten it down to $460 a month for all four of us. I don't understand these statements. I could go get health insurance on my kids tomorrow for $60 a month or less. That is a cell phone bill.
you don't care about your kids if you're not paying iphone rates.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#46 Jeepster80125

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 03:11 PM

View PostCaneBrain, on Wednesday, February 4th, 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

"serious face": Reducing costs is the key but my point with my jopke was that reducing costs will require a complete overhaul of everything related to health care (which some people think socialized medicine will accomplish). Some doctors make way too much which leaves a lot of doctors making not enough to justify what they go through to become a doctor. Health care companies throw gobs of money at candidates so they can get preferential laws later. The fact that drugs cost so much more here than they do basically anywhere else in the world doesnt help. I mean look at all the things you say need to be changed (have their costs reduced). That is basically everything!The current system is completely broken and that is why you see so many people championing socialized medicine. They think that everything needs to change. I dont think socialized medicine will make the problem better or worse. It would just be a different kind of suck.
I guess we're on the same page. Holy shit.Also,Posted ImageI just bought this tshirt
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QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#47 Dr_Jeff

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:27 PM

I find it funny that health care premiums continue to rise by 6-7% every year, but re-imbursement to us doc's continues to go down every year. Co-payments for patients are at an all time high as well. Many of my patients now have $30-40 co-pays. I see more and more patients every year to make the same or slightly less money every year. I am seriously considering leaving the healthcare field, and getting more rental properties.Having the goverment run healthcare would be even worse. Medicare and medicaid are the worst when it comes to payment. All other health insurance companies base their prices off of what medicare will reimburse. In attempts to drive down costs, medicare cuts services that they will pay for, and in turn, other insurers are able to do the same. However, if the standard of care requires that the patient needs such treatment, you must provide it for the patient even though medicare will not reimbuse you for it. You are supposed to collect from the patient. Blood from a stone comes to mind. In other instance, they won't pay for certain tests, but if those tests aren't done, you can't get paid for the treatment. (example:Xrays-> treatment of back pain, medicare won't pay for the xrays, but you must provide proof that they were done to get paid for treating sciatica)Our system is terrible now, but I feel it is better than socializing it. The costs would become astronomical. Many people avoid going to doctors because they don't have insurance, and can't afford it. Imagine if they suddenly had someone else paying the bill. They would be showing up at the office everytime they have a sniffle.The future is murky at best, at least from my vantage point. :club:

#48 hblask

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:57 PM

According to research published in Forum for Health Economics and Policy, community ratings regulations (which require insurers to offer the same rate to every individual, regarless of age, gender, or health status) raises premiums by 10 to 17 percent for individuals and 21 to 33 percent for families.Guaranteed issue regulations, which require insures to offer coverage regardless of a group's or individuals health status are also expensive. For example, in New Jersey, premiums are twice as high as those charged for similar individual and family policies offered in Pennsylvania. Regulations which prevent insurers from excluding specific doctors or hospitals from coverage also drive up costs.
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#49 Jeepster80125

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 02:34 PM

View Posthblask, on Thursday, February 5th, 2009, 2:57 PM, said:

According to research published in Forum for Health Economics and Policy, community ratings regulations (which require insurers to offer the same rate to every individual, regarless of age, gender, or health status) raises premiums by 10 to 17 percent for individuals and 21 to 33 percent for families.Guaranteed issue regulations, which require insures to offer coverage regardless of a group's or individuals health status are also expensive. For example, in New Jersey, premiums are twice as high as those charged for similar individual and family policies offered in Pennsylvania. Regulations which prevent insurers from excluding specific doctors or hospitals from coverage also drive up costs.
A legislator here in Colorado has introduced a bill to stop medical insurance companies from rating females higher than males, saying it's discrimination. Of course it's a woman who introduced it.What a dumbass. Women have much higher utilization, that's why their rates are more expensive. Just like males pay higher car insurance premiums because they have higher and more expensive claims. She doesn't realize that she'll pay more for community rates. It's infuriating to see politicians attempt to take control of our insurance policies, especially when it's so obvious they're completely clueless.
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QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#50 Loismustdie

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 04:51 PM

View PostJeepster80125, on Thursday, February 5th, 2009, 3:34 PM, said:

A legislator here in Colorado has introduced a bill to stop medical insurance companies from rating females higher than males, saying it's discrimination. Of course it's a woman who introduced it.What a dumbass. Women have much higher utilization, that's why their rates are more expensive. Just like males pay higher car insurance premiums because they have higher and more expensive claims. She doesn't realize that she'll pay more for community rates. It's infuriating to see politicians attempt to take control of our insurance policies, especially when it's so obvious they're completely clueless.
You just have issues with women, we all know it. But, so do I, so preach on, brother.
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#51 DonkSlayer

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:30 AM

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?
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#52 LincolnK

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 06:52 AM

View PostDonkSlayer, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 8:30 AM, said:

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?
seems counter-productive. as long as patients are paying with other people's money, they won't be concerned about overall cost. plus they're going to be resistant to changing providers even if the service is lacking, due to the difficulty of finding a place that will see them.on provider side, they're going to do what they can to maximize profits. that means cutting their own cost wherever they can, probably to the point of taking shortcuts where they can get away with it.

#53 hblask

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 08:00 AM

View PostDonkSlayer, on Friday, February 6th, 2009, 8:30 AM, said:

I wonder if health care price caps would do the trick?Price floors and caps are generally bad on a free market, especially a global one, because it prevents the most efficient delivery of goods and services to different persons with different buying/selling powers. However, health care is often more of a base need than a want, and healthcare is not something that is imported/exported.With some exceptions (and needing to deal with the issue that, in the current situation, we have nurse/doctor/assistant shortages), I think price caps would simply cause hospitals, offices and clinics to reach the max point of marginal return (or another goal that was different than just money) and stop growing/accepting patients, opening up room for other offices/hospitals to establish themselves as demand grows.Thoughts?
People in the health care field have alternate choices of what to do with their lives. If you put a price cap on health services, those services will go away as the people providing them find more lucrative lines of work. The government cannot override the laws of supply and demand by legislative fiat, now or ever.Also, the notion that health care is not optional is wrong except in a few special cases. What percentage of medical care in the US is emergency room type stuff? And even for the other stuff, if I go in with a sore shoulder, is an MRI necessary or optional? Is an annual physical necessary or optional? Would 15 months be just as effective? Would a double dose of an OTC pain killer be just as effective as my $150 prescription? Health care is not one thing, it is a million little things, and a million little decisions, all balanced for price and efficiency.But when the balance between price and efficiency is broken, as it is thanks to a myriad of ridiculous laws, bad things happen. In our case, it's escalating prices. In Canada, it shoddy service and long waiting lists for urgent procedures.Restore the linkage between cost and benefit, and the problem solves itself. Your solution above is the exact opposite of that.
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#54 Jeepster80125

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:05 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Thursday, February 5th, 2009, 5:51 PM, said:

You just have issues with women, we all know it. But, so do I, so preach on, brother.
Only issues with stupid women who could control my life in some way. Stupid girls at the bar, I can deal with.from guinness and poker-"In a 4-8 game this afternoon, someone said they never win when they raise with AK so they don't raise with it. I said, everytime I sleep with a woman she ends up dumping me but I still sleep with women."Gary CarsonHenry, good post.
Posted Image
QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#55 DonkSlayer

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 07:44 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Wednesday, February 4th, 2009, 1:45 PM, said:

We need to seriously stop using the phrase "completely broken" unless you can think of another place in the world you would rather get into a car accident right now. Nowhere? Really? Big surprise.
This is easy: Anyone who can't pay for the post-hospital therapy and meds. ainec
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#56 Zeatrix

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 07:57 AM

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything :club:
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#57 Jeepster80125

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:30 AM

View PostZeatrix, on Monday, February 9th, 2009, 8:57 AM, said:

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything :club:
No.
Posted Image
QUOTE (Spademan @ Friday, May 22nd, 2009, 4:24 PM)
We are both being judgmental, the only difference is my judgments are well reasoned, well presented and actually have something to do with reality whereas yours are inane assumption wrapped in a steaming pile of contradiction.

#58 All_In

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:35 AM

View PostZeatrix, on Monday, February 9th, 2009, 8:57 AM, said:

Now, I've been a bad boy and haven't read everything in this thread but...Reading DNs latest blogg made me appreciate our (Sweden's) healthcare. $86,000 for a test!!! I think you guys are missing the point. Some argue that since I'm paying for YOUR healthcare than bla bla...But "universal healthcare" is just a mandatory insurance. So for example car insurance, you are all paying so that if you get in an accident you will get some help. It's the same for healthcare, it's just the government insuring.Also, the reason why I feel comfortable with free healthcare (as we call it in Sweden) is that sure, people that treat their bodies like shit are more likely to use healthcare but it's no guarantee. A person like me that never drink, smoke or take drugs could very well get cancer that costs A LOT to treat while someone that treats his/her body badly won't. I sure wouldn't like having to pay $86,000 of my own money then!Anyways, I'm a huge fan of Magnus Betnér, a Swedish stand-up comedian who's one of the most known stand-up acts in Sweden. The reason I mention this is because he's got a really good clip on his English blogg where he mentions American healthcare. Go to http://betner.blogspot.com/ and watch his Youtube clipp from a gig in NY about a month ago. It's the clip at the very top labeled "Betnér on God". Oh, and if anyone cares, the reason I like him is because we basically share the same opinions about everything :club:
believe me, most americans think they do everything better than anyone else. you will not get much of an intellectual reply, just know-it-all one word replies.$86G for a test, LOL.
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#59 hblask

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:47 AM

View PostZeatrix, on Monday, February 9th, 2009, 9:57 AM, said:

$86,000 for a test!!!
If you think this is too much, you have a great business opportunity by offering the same service for cheaper.If you think it is too little, then are you saying our system rules?If you think it is just right, what is the problem? That we didn't run the money through an inefficient bureaucracy first? That we didn't put that particular piece of care up to a vote, and instead left it to be an issue between doctor and patient?Or are you just trying to point out that $86,000 is a scary number? Or worse yet, pretend that the number would be lower by waving the Magic Wand of Government Bureaucracy at it?
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#60 Zeatrix

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:59 AM

View Posthblask, on Monday, February 9th, 2009, 5:47 PM, said:

If you think this is too much, you have a great business opportunity by offering the same service for cheaper.If you think it is too little, then are you saying our system rules?If you think it is just right, what is the problem? That we didn't run the money through an inefficient bureaucracy first? That we didn't put that particular piece of care up to a vote, and instead left it to be an issue between doctor and patient?Or are you just trying to point out that $86,000 is a scary number? Or worse yet, pretend that the number would be lower by waving the Magic Wand of Government Bureaucracy at it?
No, I'm simply saying that I sure wouldn't be able to fork up 86 grand for a test on a whim. Would you? Would someone with a low income? I'm just saying that I'm glad that our government (our insurer per say) pays for it, if it's needed.
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"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the
evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something
which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest
evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.
" - Bertrand Russell




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