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Shove Over Top On River Or Just Call?


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#41 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:38 AM

View Postoutsider13, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 9:28 AM, said:

I like it. You see people play overpairs like this too. It's quite possible that he finally realized his big pair was no good. Or, he just sucks really bad. Probably the latter.
LOL, yeah.

#42 sactownjoey

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:27 PM

On the original hand, I am in complete agreement w/jmbreslin. The extra 500 chips absolutely does not justify the shove.

#43 jmbreslin

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 01:15 PM

View Postsactownjoey, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 4:27 PM, said:

On the original hand, I am in complete agreement w/jmbreslin. The extra 500 chips absolutely does not justify the shove.
You're a smart, smart man.
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#44 CheckCallMuck

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 03:57 PM

To me the clear choice is a call. You're risking your tournament life for a fraction of the current pot during the 1st level of blinds. If you win, you're in relatively good position to the remaining players (and as already said, no better off if you're +500 more chips at this stage). If you lose on a call, you're harmed, but not disabled for the rest of the tournament. If you lose on a shove, you're out. End of story.

#45 AimHigher

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:09 PM

I miss Looshle.

#46 TrueAce13

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:10 PM

View PostAimHigher, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 5:09 PM, said:

I miss Looshle.
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#47 HighwayStar

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:53 PM

nits.
.

#48 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:56 PM

View PostCheckCallMuck, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 5:57 PM, said:

To me the clear choice is a call. You're risking your tournament life for a fraction of the current pot during the 1st level of blinds. If you win, you're in relatively good position to the remaining players (and as already said, no better off if you're +500 more chips at this stage). If you lose on a call, you're harmed, but not disabled for the rest of the tournament. If you lose on a shove, you're out. End of story.
And it should be noted, as we see from the second 99 hand that turned into the second nut straight, that if we shove we don't always get the extra 500 chips (if villain has air or some busted draw or whatever). On the second hand, though, I think I have to ignore the far less likely danger of J9, don't you think?

#49 looshle

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:58 PM

Idk wat to say.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#50 looshle

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 07:13 PM

Raise pre, you always have limpets beat. You can limp sometimes but I raise here over 90%.You lose to one hand on the river. If you can't put your stack in on the river, you can't win at tournaments.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#51 Tehtoe

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 07:22 PM

View Postlooshle, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 9:13 PM, said:

Raise pre, you always have limpets beat. You can limp sometimes but I raise here over 90%.You lose to one hand on the river. If you can't put your stack in on the river, you can't win at tournaments.
but your tournament life!

#52 TrueAce13

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 07:23 PM

View PostTehtoe, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 7:22 PM, said:

but your tournament life!
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#53 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:02 PM

View Postlooshle, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 9:13 PM, said:

You lose to one hand on the river. If you can't put your stack in on the river, you can't win at tournaments.
Well, that is what I did...I see some merit in the other arguments though. Your opinion obv. carries more weight however.ETA: Looshle, you advocated raising preflop. Are the players you play with as loose callers as they are in the micros? Because against the players I play, the limpers will mostly call the raise at this blind level (while paradoxically they will limp at very high blinds and then fold, lol). Then you face a three or four way flop with a bloated pot, middle pair, and two overcards.

#54 AimHigher

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:29 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Friday, January 16th, 2009, 6:02 AM, said:

Well, that is what I did...I see some merit in the other arguments though. Your opinion obv. carries more weight however.ETA: Looshle, you advocated raising preflop. Are the players you play with as loose callers as they are in the micros? Because against the players I play, the limpers will mostly call the raise at this blind level (while paradoxically they will limp at very high blinds and then fold, lol). Then you face a three or four way flop with a bloated pot, middle pair, and two overcards.
I play micros and my default is to raise. Here's a few good reasons:- If we end up with more than one caller, 99 plays well multiway- We have an equity edge against the limpers ranges- We'll end up in position most of the time- We'll have the initiative- It'll be a lot easier to get stacks in when we flop a set

#55 looshle

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:45 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

Well, that is what I did...I see some merit in the other arguments though. Your opinion obv. carries more weight however.ETA: Looshle, you advocated raising preflop. Are the players you play with as loose callers as they are in the micros? Because against the players I play, the limpers will mostly call the raise at this blind level (while paradoxically they will limp at very high blinds and then fold, lol). Then you face a three or four way flop with a bloated pot, middle pair, and two overcards.
Yea I'd make it like 100 here and expect to get called in one spot, prob both in a $5 tourney.You still can flop a set, you have the lead, and your hand will be fairly easy to play postflop. Depends on flop texture etc, you can decide to c-bet or check. If they both call you're still getting to play a 17bb pot in position with the best hand. It's not like you automatically lose the pot if they call, you are in an easily exploitable situation and shutting down post flop is fine if the flop is gross.The looser they call, the more inclined you should be to raise in this spot. Exploit every edge you can find, and turn situations like this which seem to be smaller edges into bigger ones when you are playing with worse players since you can get action from worse hands and can expect them to play their hands pretty terribly postflop.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#56 SlackerInc

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:18 PM

View Postlooshle, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

The looser they call, the more inclined you should be to raise in this spot. Exploit every edge you can find, and turn situations like this which seem to be smaller edges into bigger ones when you are playing with worse players since you can get action from worse hands and can expect them to play their hands pretty terribly postflop.
I agree wholeheartedly with your second sentence there. The first one, though...isn't 99 one of those hands that does well iso against one player but declines rapidly in value in a multiway pot? I saw a chart laying out how hand rankings change depending on how many players see the flop, and I thought that was the case.And isn't part of what you are talking about in the second sentence a good reason to limp rather than raise? If you flop the set, players who play poorly postflop can be felted almost as easily starting with a teeny limp pot as they can with a much bigger raised pot, as they just don't process the concept of "big hand, big pot; small hand, small pot". So with this in mind, and after recently reading Daniel Negreanu's and Gus Hansen's recent books, I find myself swayed by the idea of seeing flops cheaply and then exploiting poor postflop play, keeping pots manageably small if my hand remains just a medium strength one, while ballooning the pot when I connect very strongly with the flop and have a hand I want to play for a big pot.But again, you obviously have the credentials, so I'm very open to being educated as to why this analysis is wrong.

#57 looshle

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 01:45 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 10:18 PM, said:

I agree wholeheartedly with your second sentence there. The first one, though...isn't 99 one of those hands that does well iso against one player but declines rapidly in value in a multiway pot? I saw a chart laying out how hand rankings change depending on how many players see the flop, and I thought that was the case.And isn't part of what you are talking about in the second sentence a good reason to limp rather than raise? If you flop the set, players who play poorly postflop can be felted almost as easily starting with a teeny limp pot as they can with a much bigger raised pot, as they just don't process the concept of "big hand, big pot; small hand, small pot". So with this in mind, and after recently reading Daniel Negreanu's and Gus Hansen's recent books, I find myself swayed by the idea of seeing flops cheaply and then exploiting poor postflop play, keeping pots manageably small if my hand remains just a medium strength one, while ballooning the pot when I connect very strongly with the flop and have a hand I want to play for a big pot.But again, you obviously have the credentials, so I'm very open to being educated as to why this analysis is wrong.
You aren't raising to fold them out, you're raising for value. If they want to fold fine, take the 3.5 bbs. If they want to call and play a raised pot out of position with the worst hand, even better. You really can't pass up edges in online donkaments, unless they are extremely small. DN and Gus are talking about big buyin events with deeper stacks and longer levels. Gus also likes to shove k7 off from mid for like 25bbs and do other random shit, so his guidelines are kind of day to day and sometimes without reasoning or math to back it up.You ARE exploiting poor play by making them put in 100 and play oop with an inferior hand. If you raise to 100 and both limpers call you, and c/f the flop you're picking up 230 chips which is like 8% of your stack or something like that. Yea, it;d be nice to flop sets in limped pots and get all the money in but unfortunately it's pretty rare. You are going to profit 200 chips like 75% of the time if you raise, they both call, and you c-bet. If you limp in and set mine, you're only flopping a set 1 out of every 7.5 times and how often is someone going to stack off? Very rarely. Those 6.5 times you miss and go into check call mode are missed opportunities. Let's say they both call pre (which prob happens in a $5) and you profit, on average, 75 chips. 75*6.5 = 487.5 chips you've thrown away by limping. You simply aren't going to get someone to stack off or lose a lot of chips enough in a limped pot to pass on that kind of edge. Also, another point about playing a limped pot vs a raised pot is: in a limped pot since its only 20 on the flop it's usually hard to get your bet sizing to get people to stack off , but much easier when you flop a set in a raised pot. If the pots 330 after they both call your raise, you can get your stack in pretty easily on the river, if you use correct bet sizing which is easier with position. Something like 250, call. Pots 830 now. 700, call. Pots 2030. Now you can jam without it being an overbet.Bottom line is: You're not DN, this isn't the WPT championship. Push your edges whenever you can.
QUOTE (rcgs59 @ Sunday, December 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
say what?

I don't berate players unless they are donkeys making bad plays


#58 jmbreslin

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:47 AM

View Postlooshle, on Thursday, January 15th, 2009, 11:13 PM, said:

You lose to one hand on the river. If you can't put your stack in on the river, you can't win at tournaments.
In large field tournaments, I agree 100%. But not in small SnGs. The two contexts are quite different and you can't play both the same way. This decisision isn't about being weak or not having the nads to put my stack on the line on the river. It's about making the best decision in terms of my overall tournament equity.By the way, what ever happened to copernicus?
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#59 SlackerInc

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:53 AM

View Postlooshle, on Friday, January 16th, 2009, 3:45 AM, said:

Also, another point about playing a limped pot vs a raised pot is: in a limped pot since its only 20 on the flop it's usually hard to get your bet sizing to get people to stack off , but much easier when you flop a set in a raised pot. If the pots 330 after they both call your raise, you can get your stack in pretty easily on the river, if you use correct bet sizing which is easier with position. Something like 250, call. Pots 830 now. 700, call. Pots 2030. Now you can jam without it being an overbet.
But that's what I was talking about in my post--at this level, most people have no concept of an "overbet". That is, they don't think about how much is in the pot when they decide whether to call off all their chips (or to shove themselves). They like their hand enough to go all in, or they don't. (This also leads to very poor folds when the pot is big and their pot odds are very favourable.) So implied odds are much greater than what they would be with people who have any sense of pot size, effective stacks, stack/blind ratios, etc., meaning there is a greater incentive to get to flops cheaply.Admittedly, it might be teaching me bad habits as I'd like to play at a higher level like you do, where to felt someone you presumably do have to work your way up starting preflop and working incrementally street by street.I also think it's worth remembering, as others have pointed out, that this is a 3-table SnG, not a big MTT.(P.S. Yeah, where is Copernicus?)

#60 sactownjoey

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:13 AM

looshle, are you doing the same with 88-77 or lower pp? When are you set mining in this situation?




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