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Shove Over Top On River Or Just Call?


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#1 SlackerInc

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:21 AM

This is an area where I definitely think I need to improve my game. When I have a very strong hand (but not the nuts) on the river, and I get check-raised, sometimes I play it safe by calling and find out I could have gotten more value; other times I go for it and find out I should have played it safe after all. Here's a great example of just such a dilemma:PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.50 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP2 (t1740)MP3 (t1460)Hero (CO) (t1400)SB (t1480)BB (t1500)UTG (t1480)UTG+1 (t1500)MP1 (t1480)Hero's M: 46.67Preflop: Hero is CO with 9Posted Image, 9Posted Image2 folds, MP1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP3 calls t20, Hero calls t20, 2 folds, BB checksFlop: (t90) KPosted Image, 8Posted Image, JPosted Image (4 players)BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checksTurn: (t90) 9Posted Image (4 players)BB checks, MP1 bets t40, 1 fold, Hero raises to t160, 1 fold, MP1 calls t120River: (t410) JPosted Image (2 players)MP1 checks, Hero bets t200, MP1 raises to t600, Hero...?

#2 outsider13

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:27 AM

I tend to shove this all day long. If he shows up with Jacks full, it's just ul.

#3 NankerPhelge

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:53 AM

Hmm. Does anybody else feel this hand was played really strangely by villain? He flat calls the raise on the turn and then check raises the river. Surely if he had KJ or a straight he would have to bet the river? There's no way he could be sure that you wouldn't check behind him if he had KJ and with a straight he'd either want to know where he is with a bet or he'd simply check/call. Not sure what to do but I'd probably end up shoving. Did you call?

#4 Lee_LightsOut_B

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:11 AM

View PostNankerPhelge, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

Hmm. Does anybody else feel this hand was played really strangely by villain? He flat calls the raise on the turn and then check raises the river. Surely if he had KJ or a straight he would have to bet the river? There's no way he could be sure that you wouldn't check behind him if he had KJ and with a straight he'd either want to know where he is with a bet or he'd simply check/call. Not sure what to do but I'd probably end up shoving. Did you call?
For some reason I was thinking with no reads the first instinct given ther action that villan shows up here with KJ or Jx more often than not ..... but again I say this with no given reads no previous hands played vs villan (ie is he always showing up with the nuts ...... ) my initial thought was KJ or Jx.... Any thoughts? this is given the screwy play at these stakes (I have seen plenty of screwy plays at this level)
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#5 jmbreslin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:16 AM

I don't think I bother shoving the river but that's because in SnGs I tend to come down on the side of preserving chips rather than extracting max value. I'm happy to take the 1200 chips if I have him beat rather than risk busting out. The gain in equity from extracting another 500 chips does not offset the loss in equity from busting.
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#6 HighwayStar

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:49 AM

ShoveThe fact he check raised suggests he's quite trappy (or just bluffing) but being trappy here could mean AJ/QJ/QT/JT/88, all of which pay off a shove. KJ/J9/J8 also make some sense. I'd lean away from J8/J9 though.
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#7 SGFULTON83

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:04 AM

I ship it all-in, if villian has us beat then so be it.

#8 SlackerInc

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:29 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

I don't think I bother shoving the river but that's because in SnGs I tend to come down on the side of preserving chips rather than extracting max value. I'm happy to take the 1200 chips if I have him beat rather than risk busting out. The gain in equity from extracting another 500 chips does not offset the loss in equity from busting.
That's an interesting point. So if I take the conservative approach and call (I'm not going to tell what I did in this hand just yet), and I've got villain crushed as it turns out, I shouldn't necessarily be really upset that I lost value, because maybe over the long run I'm better off never busting there.And btw, last night I had a true "chip and a chair" sequence where I came back from 20 in chips to over 1000, so I definitely hear you there. (I didn't actually cash, which would have made it a better story...but still!)

#9 Gallo

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:44 AM

In $5 tournies people always overvalue their holding. Villain could have like a straight or just trips. I might shove here since he probably can't really put you on a full house the way you played your hand. If he has you, he has you. In a tourney I look to accumulate as much as I can and I don't mind shipping it here.A call is fine though.
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#10 Chet Chetterson

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:30 AM

There's definitely a difference in what to think if this is a SnG or an MTT. MTT this is closer to shipping because you want to accumulate chips. In a Sit n Go the call seems perfectly reasonable, as you will have a strong stack.
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#11 jmbreslin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 01:27 PM

View PostSlackerInc, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 2:29 PM, said:

That's an interesting point. So if I take the conservative approach and call (I'm not going to tell what I did in this hand just yet), and I've got villain crushed as it turns out, I shouldn't necessarily be really upset that I lost value, because maybe over the long run I'm better off never busting there.
You shouldn't be upset at all. In my opinion, the mentality of "shove and if he has you beat that's bad luck" is cash-game or MTT thinking, not SnG strategy. If you look at the arguments from an equity perspective, they're pretty convincing that taking early risks to double up in a SnG is bad for your tournament equity. It makes sense in cash games where you can just reload and where every decision is a pure ev calculation, and in MTTs where you have to take risks to accumulate chips, but not in SnGs.
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#12 jmbreslin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 01:28 PM

View PostChet Chetterson, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 3:30 PM, said:

There's definitely a difference in what to think if this is a SnG or an MTT. MTT this is closer to shipping because you want to accumulate chips. In a Sit n Go the call seems perfectly reasonable, as you will have a strong stack.
It's a 3-table SnG, which plays more like a STT than a MTT.
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#13 Chet Chetterson

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 01:55 PM

Thanks, I missed that heading before. My point was general anyway, so hopefully it's useful to OP
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#14 Gallo

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:16 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 3:28 PM, said:

It's a 3-table SnG, which plays more like a STT than a MTT.
I usually play these very tight, wait for good spots to steal/shove/reshove. But I still might shove the hand on the river.
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#15 outsider13

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:20 PM

View PostGallo, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 4:16 PM, said:

I usually play these very tight, wait for good spots to steal/shove/reshove. But I still might shove the hand on the river.
I agree. I'm as tight as they come, even in 6max stt's early on. I still say I shove this spot, only because you'll see QT or Jx a lot. Your hand is very disguised here.

#16 gotchips

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:31 PM

hello all! :club: my first post on these forumsi think this is a clear shove because there are a ton of hands you beat that could still be raising that river, and I would chalk it up as a cooler if he shows up with a higher boat. my guess is you lost the hand and he flipped KJ or something similar, and I really think thats results oriented thinking to be questioning getting it in on this board. on a side, i think you should always be raising this hand pre, as the limping ranges in these low limit sngs are pretty horrendous and in the long run it is going to be +EV to try and iso raise when you'll probably be in position for the hand.

#17 jmbreslin

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 02:54 PM

View Postoutsider13, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 6:20 PM, said:

I agree. I'm as tight as they come, even in 6max stt's early on. I still say I shove this spot, only because you'll see QT or Jx a lot. Your hand is very disguised here.
And you could also see KJ. The point is that if you shove and lose, you're out of the tourney. If you shove and win, you pull in an extra 500 chips (over calling). That extra 500 chips is insignificant in the grand scheme of the tourney, and the benefit in terms of overall tournament equity is virtually nil. It's just not worth the risk. I think calling is by far the better play here.
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#18 TrueAce13

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 03:08 PM

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#19 outsider13

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 03:13 PM

View Postgotchips, on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009, 4:31 PM, said:

on a side, i think you should always be raising this hand pre, as the limping ranges in these low limit sngs are pretty horrendous and in the long run it is going to be +EV to try and iso raise when you'll probably be in position for the hand.
The limp is perfectly fine in the early levels. Raising here in a multiway pot is a spew seeing as there's a ton of flops that you do not want to see with 99 and you will be handcuffed almost every flop you don't hit a set. Better to take the cheap route because you'll often get paid off if it's a community pot and you hit the set.

#20 MovingIn

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:12 PM

This is one of those multiway flops you need to lead in position. We have plenty of chips relative to the pot, and can afford to thin the herd a bit. This also gives a healthy turn lead more strength. I don't think KJ or QT's going anywhere :/ I think this line's more consistent with trip jacks, though.




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