A Ceo's Letter

[hblask 1]

This appears to be real:------------------------------------To All My Valued Employees, There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country. Of course, as your employer, I am forbidden to tell you whom to vote for -- it is against the law to discriminate based on political affiliation, Race, creed, religion, etc. Please vote who you think will serve your Interests the best. However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interest. First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a back story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life. However, what you don't see is the back story. I started this company 12 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living space was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you. My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice. Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the Goodwill store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had. So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button For me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, ****, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to me like a 1 day old baby. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the back story and the sacrifices I've made. Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for. Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds. Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why: I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch. The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country. The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy. Here is what many of you don't understand; to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now. When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the mud of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep. So where am I going with all this? It's quite simple. If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more. Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship. While tax cuts to 95% of America sounds great on paper, don't forget the backstory: If there is no job, there is no income to tax. A tax cut on zero dollars is zero. So, when you make decision to vote, ask yourself, who understands the economics of business ownership and who doesn't? Whose policies will endanger your job? Answer those questions and you should know who might be the one capable of saving your job. While the media wants to tell you "It's the economy Stupid" I'm telling you it isn't. If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the Constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me in South Caribbean sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about. Signed, Your boss, Michael A. Crowley,PE Crowley, Crisp & Associates, Inc.Professional Engineers 1906 South Main Street, Suite 122Wake Forest, NC 27587 919.562.8860 x22 919.562.8872 Fax

[akoff 0]

This appears to be real:------------------------------------To All My Valued Employees,There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job.What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country. Of course, as your employer, I am forbidden to tell you whom to vote for -- it is against the law to discriminate based on political affiliation, Race, creed, religion, etc.Please vote who you think will serve your Interests the best. However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interest. First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a back story.This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life. However, what you don't see is the back story.I started this company 12 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living space was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the Goodwill store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's.My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button For me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, ****, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to me like a 1 day old baby.You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the back story and the sacrifices I've made. Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't.The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for. Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds. Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check?Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country. The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy. Here is what many of you don't understand; to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the mud of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine.Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep. So where am I going with all this? It's quite simple. If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more. Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire.You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.While tax cuts to 95% of America sounds great on paper, don't forget the backstory: If there is no job, there is no income to tax. A tax cut on zero dollars is zero. So, when you make decision to vote, ask yourself, who understands the economics of business ownership and who doesn't? Whose policies will endanger your job? Answer those questions and you should know who might be the one capable of saving your job. While the media wants to tell you "It's the economy Stupid" I'm telling you it isn't.If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the Constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me in South Caribbean sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about.Signed, Your boss,Michael A. Crowley,PE Crowley, Crisp & Associates, Inc.Professional Engineers 1906 South Main Street, Suite 122Wake Forest, NC 27587919.562.8860 x22 919.562.8872 Fax

Oh my god...that is so many guys that i know. I am jealous of that so much. I still need 10 years to get the kids through college and then i am done...what a great letter.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

This is my favorite part.

[FCP Bob 1,323]

That's fine if the market is as efficient as your core beliefs should make you think they are Henry then another firm will take the opportunity to service the customers of that business if it closes and they will need to hire workers to provide those services. The invisible hand of the market will always be there to take care of things.The bottom line is that nobody likes paying taxes but stuff needs to be paid for. Yes many thing the government does are done poorly and could be better done in the private sector. Not in the mood for a big tax policy debate but a letter like this one is pretty stupid since if he's such a smart business person and makes the decision that he would rather be retired than continue in business he would sell his business rather than walk away and lose his equity.

[akoff 0]

Not in the mood for a big tax policy debate but a letter like this one is pretty stupid since if he's such a smart business person and makes the decision that he would rather be retired than continue in business he would sell his business rather than walk away and lose his equity.

You are assuming he wouldn't sell it. Most business guys i know trat the company like a child. When they say they are closing it down they really mean selling out. In there minds the company is an extension of them and they are leaving...I don't believe most of the general public understands the risks, sacrafices that small business owners take on themselves to own / start or purchase a company. Most are blinded by the few that prosper and ignore the many that lose all or most of what they invested.

[FCP Bob 1,323]

You are assuming he wouldn't sell it. Most business guys i know trat the company like a child. When they say they are closing it down they really mean selling out. In there minds the company is an extension of them and they are leaving...I don't believe most of the general public understands the risks, sacrafices that small business owners take on themselves to own / start or purchase a company. Most are blinded by the few that prosper and ignore the many that lose all or most of what they invested.

No question that the vast majority of successful small business owners work very hard and in many cases lay it all on the line to get where they are.When he says that he'll fire everybody that doesn't imply that he's looking to sell but rather all he's trying to do is scare his employees. If the letter is real the guy is either scaremongering or if he's serious then he's a fool.

[hblask 1]

>That's fine if the market is as efficient as your core beliefs should make you think they are Henry then another firm will take the opportunity to service the customers of that business if it closes and they will need to hire workers to provide those services.The invisible hand of the market will always be there to take care of things.

This is actually a good point. The question is if and where the jobs will happen, at least for these employees. If it's the type of job that can be outsourced, the people who pick up the slack may be in NYC or India or even, believe it or not, Canada. It would most likely be overseas, somewhere with a less punitive tax system. What happens is that each person decides how much their time is worth. Starting and running a business requires a huge amount of effort and commitment. If the tax structure makes running a business less profitable, then the people who are smart enough and dedicated enough to create a successful business will move on to things that provide a better tradeoff for the value of their time. At that point, basically, there will be fewer jobs in the economy. It is possible for some jobs to just disappear.

Not in the mood for a big tax policy debate but a letter like this one is pretty stupid since if he's such a smart business person and makes the decision that he would rather be retired than continue in business he would sell his business rather than walk away and lose his equity.

That seems the most likely result, that it will be sold to a company that can benefit from economies of scale. Usually, that means job losses, because they eliminate duplicate jobs. Otherwise, what would be the point of the purchase?. It's not any more worth it for them than anybody else. The best you can do is combine and hope for synergy. So either way, jobs are threatened. So yeah, in that case, not ALL the employees would be unemployed, but some of them almost certainly would be.It's also possible that the guy just saved enough money through the years, and the resale value of the company so low that he would just walk away. My wife runs a business that makes money, but the sale value is basically zero. Some businesses just can't be sold.

[Mercury69 3]

I realise it would be easy to become emotionally attached to a business you started, but that's a fundamental error that affects the owner. Some people make their living starting up businesses and selling them off and moving on to the next opportunity. It's like buying a house to refurb and turning it over after making 30K in renos. Hell, who can help becoming attached to that? And starting a business as a dream and sweating blood and tears to make it work is as American as it gets, but economic reality MUST be addressed and it must be done with ALL considerations, not just casting a stink eyed glance at the change in political climate. During the Reagan years, many people had it good, but just as many, if not more, really got reamed hardcore because they were unable or unwilling to model their lives and business practices on Reaganomics. Should lazy people be rewarded by being taxed less? No fckn way. But, as it happens, part of the American system and economy is based on taxes and it doesn't matter who is in office, it's going to happen.I'm not saying I know about tax changes that might already be occuring with the change in government, but if this guy thinks having Obama in office is screwing him, think about the people Bush screwed when he was in office. Will it ever be fair for everyone? I doubt it. not the way the US economy is modelled.I thought it was a good letter and made some fair points, but this guy is still looking out for #1 and will do what he has to do to stay afloat, even if that means canning most of his employees or axing their benefit program, etc.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,960]

hey, if you guys want to really tell him how you feel: http://www.crowley-crisp.com/ContactUs/tabid/83/Default.aspx

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

...think about the people Bush screwed when he was in office...

I believe you're thinking of Bill Clinton.

[hblask 1]

but if this guy thinks having Obama in office is screwing him, think about the people Bush screwed when he was in office.

The thing is, I think it's the SAME people getting screwed in both instances. Big business has lobbyists, and the rich have lots of options. It's the middle class that takes the brunt of wasteful spending and gigantic pork programs every time -- and make no mistake, Obama's "stimulus plan" is just the mother of all pork.As the letter points out, the rich can work less, they can move their money around, they can do what it takes to make their lives comfortable. It's people like me, whose company announced no raises this year, and who will be paying for the trillions of dollars of federal debt for the rest of my life, that are hurt.

[akoff 0]

The thing is, I think it's the SAME people getting screwed in both instances. Big business has lobbyists, and the rich have lots of options. It's the middle class that takes the brunt of wasteful spending and gigantic pork programs every time -- and make no mistake, Obama's "stimulus plan" is just the mother of all pork.As the letter points out, the rich can work less, they can move their money around, they can do what it takes to make their lives comfortable. It's people like me, whose company announced no raises this year, and who will be paying for the trillions of dollars of federal debt for the rest of my life, that are hurt.

The bolded text is so true. It is shame these are the same people that voted him into office...As far as your 2nd comment. The rich have and will continue to pay the vast majority of taxes. Granted they will not be lifestyle effecting like they are to the middle class but they will still pay them.By the way I would be hard pressed to to think anyone here would be considered rich in terms of real wealth. I may be wrong and god bless you if are but I doubt it. Real wealth doesn't feel things like taxes or eceonomic slumps. all they mean is your wealth is not growing as much as it had been. We have some guys that might make good money and even accumulated a nice net worth but "rich" i doubt that.

[Mercury69 3]

I believe you're thinking of Bill Clinton.

Well, Clinton also, then...I wouldn't want to omit anyone :-).

[Jeepster80125 0]

Fantastic post. It's too bad that most employees don't get it and will never understand.

That's fine if the market is as efficient as your core beliefs should make you think they are Henry then another firm will take the opportunity to service the customers of that business if it closes and they will need to hire workers to provide those services. The invisible hand of the market will always be there to take care of things.The bottom line is that nobody likes paying taxes but stuff needs to be paid for. Yes many thing the government does are done poorly and could be better done in the private sector. Not in the mood for a big tax policy debate but a letter like this one is pretty stupid since if he's such a smart business person and makes the decision that he would rather be retired than continue in business he would sell his business rather than walk away and lose his equity.

Forgive me if I don't like the idea of ShaNiqua collecting welfare for her six kids while she refuses to get a job, because the free ride is easier.

[BigLebowski 0]

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button For me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, ****, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to me like a 1 day old baby.

I love the way this guy basically calls his employees lazy asses and tries to throw the fear of God into them. What a nice guy! Plainly dumb as hell to keep employees like this around. Maybe if he hired competent and hard working people he wouldn't have so much to bitch about.And to all the CEO's like this guy. Go screw yourself. Just because you are the business owner does not mean you are the only hard working guy. It is almost a guarantee that many people along the way busted their asses and gave up a ton of their personal time to help this guy and his company become successful. The fact that he makes it sound like he did it all on his own makes him sound like a self centered pompous prick. Although I agree with several of his points, particularly on taxation, I would have quit on the spot if I received that email.....simply for that one sentence alone.

[Balloon guy 158]

I remember a while back someone asking me if I knew how many people would kill to be in my position in business. I responded not as many as would be willing to work a side job, live pay check to pay check and scrape by for 15 years to get where I am.I had to work a side job in the summers; furniture movers or on a farm, to pay my bills, and always paid my employees and my bills first.12 years later I starter making a decent amount of money, enough to not have to work during the summer, then I made a big chunk of money in a short time, and luckily invested it through necessity into my business by buying commercial real estate at just the right time. This windfall profit season lasted 4 years.Now both buildings are paid off, worth 75% more than I paid for them ( maybe 50% now ) and I can see retirment on the horizon.I paid 30% of all my income total every year after all the write offs I could muster. I've had anywhere from 2 to 5 full time employees, for the last 15 years, and given countless people extra money on the side to help them, paying on average $20 an hour for after hours work. I always buy a new work truck or van every year, having bought over 20 Fords in the last 15 years. ( super VIP status at the Ford dealership (no idea what that means))Now business is slow, I'm forced to work most jobs alone, or with limited help. We have cut back to 1/4 of our previous paycheck, but continue to pay our bills and 3 employees first. We have gotten low interest loans to pay off our higher rates, and will probably qualify for the tax rebate under President Obama. Since I have attached my paycheck to my business, I suffer these set backs, just like I reap the rewards of the good times.I have no problem paying taxes, I have recieved a lot from this country. But paying taxes and watching them spent wastefully, all while rewarding stupidity ( banks who made bad loans and or insurance on the loans, corporate idiots who can't figure out they can't promise everything for ever and continue to survive, etc.) is maddening.I have great sympathy for many single mothers who are stuck on welfare, only thing I really want changed is to make the men suffer for getting the girls pregnant then bailing on them. We live in a rich country, we should help people. And I don't mind helping people too much rather than not enough. I do not however like that 17% of every dollar spent on welfare goes to the person needing help, and 83% goes to the government program controlling it. Nor do I like that we have created a sub class of people that have become parasites on the system, instead of helping people off the public dole. Don't have a way to fix it, so can only complaign.The above letter, while true, is also way off. No one made me work 60 hours a week, no one made me scrape and struggle to run my own business, and as such, no one else is entitled to my freedoms and riches. But the infrastructure and freedoms we enjoy because of our soldiers sacrifices and building programs need funding, therefore taxes are a reality.I will still bitch and whine about taxes as I am a man. But I don't see taxes as being a complete evil. More like a necessary one. People who start and run businesses reap their rewards, with the rewards comes burdens. If you don't want the burdens, you don't get the rewards. You can get a government job, make a steady income, have security and a retirement plan which rivals any other country, or you can go risk rewards and be an entrepreneur. Freedom to choose.And the dirty little secret is that I will raise my prices to pay any extra taxes, just like Walmart, Exxon, Starbucks, and Twizzlers will do as well. We all pay higher taxes through higher prices. And the money the government takes from one area, and dumps in another, funnels back to the top eventually anyway. Moving money is what matters, more than anything, as long as money is moving we will do fine.So cliffnotes:I'm richIt's pretty niceTaxes suck but what you gonna do?End of the day, it's better to have than have not.

[Sal Paradise 57]

I will still bitch and whine about taxes as I am a man. But I don't see taxes as being a complete evil. More like a necessary one. People who start and run businesses reap their rewards, with the rewards comes burdens. If you don't want the burdens, you don't get the rewards. You can get a government job, make a steady income, have security and a retirement plan which rivals any other country, or you can go risk rewards and be an entrepreneur. Freedom to choose.

problem is, when the rewards are punished to the point that they do not outweigh the risks, nobody will take the risks anymore.

And the dirty little secret is that I will raise my prices to pay any extra taxes, just like Walmart, Exxon, Starbucks, and Twizzlers will do as well. We all pay higher taxes through higher prices. And the money the government takes from one area, and dumps in another, funnels back to the top eventually anyway.

Ed Zachary.

[Merby 3]

So cliffnotes:

I should visit this forum more often... There are some well-thought-out posts here generating some intelligent debate.

[Balloon guy 158]

I should visit this forum more often... There are some well-thought-out posts here generating some intelligent debate.

Me and nutz post here too

[Balloon guy 158]

problem is, when the rewards are punished to the point that they do not outweigh the risks, nobody will take the risks anymore.

Nice catch phrase, not reality. Somebody will always want to be the Donald Trump of every industry. They may slow down the growth cycles, and generally get in the way, but business in America will find a way to make things happen despite government, and if they have to buy themselves a congressman or two, then they'll build that cost into the price of widgets as well.

Ed Zachary.

I am rubber, you are glue.

[Jeepster80125 0]

I should visit this forum more often... There are some well-thought-out posts here generating some intelligent debate.

There are lots of well thought out posts. You'll soon realize who the right and left wing nutso's are too, and they're just as entertaining as they are nonsensical. I find it enjoyable that people are very respectful of differing opinions, and it's nice to have a discussion that doesn't deteriorate into endless flames all the time like some other forums. I'm sure you'd enjoy posting here.

[mtdesmoines 2]

I remember a while back ..............., ............more than anything, as long as money is moving we will do fine.So cliffnotes:I'm richIt's pretty niceTaxes suck but what you gonna do?End of the day, it's better to have than have not.

Pretty much agree.

[BigLebowski 0]

Moving money is what matters, more than anything, as long as money is moving we will do fine.

So what happens when that money moves to other countries and at some point they refuse to give it back to us so we can give it back to them?

[strategy's_touch 0]

So what happens when that money moves to other countries and at some point they refuse to give it back to us so we can give it back to them?

what happens if the trade deficit continues and everyone accepts our paper for goods without ever asking anything in return? well, that seems like a pretty good situation for us. the real threatening scenario is when people stop accepting our dollars.

[hblask 1]

This all goes back to a post I made in another thread discussing how wealth is created. Wealth -- a higher standard of living, a better life -- is created when two people engage in a trade voluntarily. Both sides feel better off in a way that is important to them at that moment, otherwise, they wouldn't do it.So how can the govt make us wealthy? By setting up systems that allow people to engage in voluntary mutual transactions. The more of this we get, the more motivated people will be to work hard. If going to your job an extra 10 hours a week means a new Porsche, you might be quite motivated to do that. If it means the community gets a new Polka History Museum built with tax money, not so much.And this is how taxation hurts us -- by taking money from voluntary consensual transactions and moving it to politically motivated transactions. We all know congress is corrupt and driven by the big money of lobbyists. All you have to do is read a few bills to see how obvious that is. So yeah, taxes should be minimized to those few things that pretty much everyone agrees on -- defense, highways. After that the support levels drop quickly, and you start harming the economy, because you are moving money from things people value highly and will be motivated to work for into things that people don't value much at all and would rather not get up in the morning for.Yes, taxes are necessary, and no, I don't think they are "evil", but each dollar spent on taxes that would not be spent freely by the citizens given a choice is a dollar that harms the economy to some degree.