Ak Against 2 All-ins

[Sens-Eh 0]

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($66.35)Button ($81.30)SB ($157.05)BB ($49.10)Hero (UTG) ($101.50)UTG+1 ($34.95)MP1 ($104.50)MP2 ($30.15)MP3 ($71.95)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A , K Hero raises to $3.50, 5 folds, Button calls $3.50, SB raises to $14, 1 fold, Hero raises to $43, Button raises to $81.30 (All-In), SB raises to $157.05 (All-In), reads: BB seems to be solid ABC semi-nitty TAG(around 12/10/2) but I don't have many hands logged with him - maybe 200Button is relatively unknown although his numbers didn't jump out at me as crazy wild over my first 30 hands with him...(i.e. he was playing less then 30% of the pots)Was it a mistake to make my 4 bet? Given that I believed the SB to be solid nitty, his raise of my UTG bet shows mega strength - but surely he could have made the 3 bet with J,J or even 10,10 I am thinking and he could have gotten away from it...Meanwhile the button is in there having called my original raise - there was no reason to believe he was going to stick around after the 3 and 4 bets - but how should his presence in the hand have affected my play? Should it have encouraged or discouraged me to flat call the SB 3 bet?By the time the 5 bets/6bet goes in I am getting just under 4-1 on my money to call - but It seems awful likely that I am up against specifically one hand of A,A and one of K,K - which just destroys my A,K...(I mean I would need closer to 20-1 to make that a correct call if they turn over their cards and show me those 2 hands) ..given the possibility that one of them has Q,Q though - Do I need to suck it up and call or should I just fold after making a 4 bet (something I don't normally do).

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think I fold...especially against players I don't read as aggro/loose. I think your outs against a pair like QQ/KK are going to be eaten up by whomever doesn't show those pairs. I'm thinking we see like QQ/AK, KK/QQ, AQ/KK, AA/AK.

[Zach6668 513]

You fold after putting in almost half of your stack?Or you fold to the initial 3-bet?

[DonkSlayer 1]

You fold after putting in almost half of your stack?Or you fold to the initial 3-bet?

What's your point? I'm sure you knew I meant fold "after putting in almost half your stack", but are you getting the correct odds to call against their ranges? Who gives a shyt how much money is in if you aren't getting correct odds to continue?

[Zach6668 513]

What's your point? I'm sure you knew I meant fold "after putting in almost half your stack", but are you getting the correct odds to call against their ranges? Who gives a shyt how much money is in if you aren't getting correct odds to continue?

No, I was seriously asking.I don't believe button is this strong, but against both players ranges of QQ+, AKs, AKo, we're 17.4% So we'd need 4.75ish to 1. Too lazy to do the math right now, and I don't necessarily believe button has to be this strong. He could easily just have a mid pair he doesn't know what to do with here. I'm also not taking into effect the side pots, etc, which probably hurt my case.

[tskillz187 0]

4bet smaller, so that you can have people possibly spazz over the top. they are making a bad play by flat calling ebven if you make it something in the $34-38 range. I'd make it $38 because of two opponents. I think button could have some silly stuff here. I'm not folding once I put in 43bbs in a 101bb stack.Edit: Also once I 4bet for value I'm never folding to a raise, you 4bet for value, just cross fingers and pray.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Edit: Also once I 4bet for value I'm never folding to a raise, you 4bet for value, just cross fingers and pray.

This. Although reads help a lot here and your reads limit the villain's ranges quite a bit. It's hard to believe they both went berserk on one hand over your 3 bet. I know it was probably KK vs. QQ and an ace hit the board, but I think folding might be proper until you have 5,000 hands on villains and know what their shoving range is.

[krup24 0]

it's okay to just call the 3-bet. i mean folding to the 3-bet is kinda weak but if a 12/10 3-bets me out of the SB his range is pretty tight and strong. Say TT+ AK. my play here is to just call the 3-bet and take a flop vs this particular villian.but once you 4-bet you have to call the shove imo

[Acid_Knight 2]

What's your point? I'm sure you knew I meant fold "after putting in almost half your stack", but are you getting the correct odds to call against their ranges? Who gives a shyt how much money is in if you aren't getting correct odds to continue?

I don't think he meant that because it seems fairly straight forward that we're committed to call here once we've put in so much money and are getting such great odds. As long as we're not against AA, I'm pretty sure we're not making a mistake calling here.And what Tim said, if we're 4 betting with AK here, it's cause we're getting it in. If we're not comfortable with that, then don't 4 bet.

[tskillz187 0]

but I think folding might be proper until you have 5,000 hands on villains and know what their shoving range is.

Do you have a HUD now? I know you never used to, was just wondering, cuz 5k hands is a lot. Like I don't know if I have 5k hands on anyone in my database. I'd say once you have 200-300 hands you have a pretty good idea of the kind of player they are, 1k and you have a good idea of 3b/4b stats.

[Sens-Eh 0]

Results:I called and the flop came all hearts (I had ) then two blank black cards. Button showed K,K, SB showed A,A...After further consideration I think I should have flat called the 3bet given my read. After 4betting and getting 5/6 bet I think there is a good argument for folding regardless of how much I committed - I mean I pretty much figured the SB had a very high chance of having A,A or K,K - but I didn't know for certain about the button - so I convinced myself to call. I don't think the math was there though, and even after committing 40% of my stack to the pot - I guess I should have let it go.In this case after flopping the nut flush draw, I likely was getting stacked this hand even if I had flat called the 3 bet but c'est la vie.