21 replies to this topic

[UncleHoot]

Since I started playing poker again (after taking some time off), I discovered the $2 180-man tourneys on Stars. I've done really well in these over the last couple of months, but in the last 2-3 weeks, these things have turned into all-in donkfests. It's almost as bad as the play money tourneys. Yes, you can make money, but more likely, you'll just go on tilt and possibly lose your mind.

A few things I've seen:
Final table, I went out in 5th, after being 2nd in chips. All-in with JJ preflop, called by Q5 from the big stack. Why? Ironically, I had made a statement about 10 minutes beore that, "I'll probably be all-in preflop and get busted by Q7." That's my best guess as to why they called. (Yeah, yeah, BBFIDTS)

Dealt AJs, raise 3x BB to 150. Reraise right behind me to 400. Then all-in, another all-in, and another all-in. Fold AJs, right? You're probably looking at AQ or AK and a couple big pairs. I fold. Reraised by KJo, all-in has KQ, next all-in has KT, final all-in caller has A6s. KT wins the hand, of course, so I guess it was a good fold afterall (NOT!).

Dealt AJo (again), BB caller in front of me, then I bump 4X BB to 120. All-in behind me for his remaining 600. Fold, fold. I'm planning to call. The original BB caller calls the 600. I'm puzzled. I sit and think and think, and finally fold figuring they were slowplaying a really big hand. I guess K8s is a big hand.

These are not isolated situations, of course. It's normal to see all-ins called by small pairs, weak Aces, etc. Heck, K9.

It seems like the level of play has devolved just in the last month. But the question that I'm struggling with, is how do you play one of these? Take the play-money approach and simply shove anything and hope to get lucky, and if you don't, just jump in the next one? Lately, I feel like a nit, because I don't think A9o is all-in material at a full table.

I've been playing $1 tourneys since I started playing online poker, and I swear that the level of play has gotten steadily more aggro-donkish. Tightening up simply guarantees that you will "make the money", but rarely move beyond that since you never get a big stack, and getting a big stack early is generally what helps you out in one of these.

I realize that this is kind of a whiney post, but I'm honestly puzzled. Apparently, I don't know how to defend against these types of players and I'm on a horrible downswing now (though I gained back a little ground recently).

[Whatever]

There are some fundamental flaws with your post but I will leave it to others to point them out to you.

[zander24]

Just play monopoly.

[UncleHoot]

There are some fundamental flaws with your post but I will leave it to others to point them out to you.

Raising with AJ? Please, feel free to post, otherwise I'll just assume you're being a smartass.

[BeaverStyle]

Anything turbo is usually a crapshoot. Scratch that. They're always a crap shoot.

[Whatever]

OK - the biggest flaw I thought I saw in your post was the idea that the worse people play, the harder they are to beat. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

The more you play these the better idea you'll have of their wide world of ranges in certain situations. Generally tight is right and if it's not working chalk it up to variance. (and turbo mtt variance is at a whole 'nother level)

[UncleHoot]

OK - the biggest flaw I thought I saw in your post was the idea that the worse people play, the harder they are to beat. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

The more you play these the better idea you'll have of their wide world of ranges in certain situations. Generally tight is right and if it's not working chalk it up to variance. (and turbo mtt variance is at a whole 'nother level)

Fair enough.

The type of "Worse" is relative. Against Weak-Tight (my favorite), I can win easily. Against hyper LAG, it's difficult, and that's essentially what I'm up against. Hyper LAG is not necessarily BAD per se, but it certainly can be (aggro-donk), and it's difficult not to fold the best hand, preflop and on the flop, turn, and river. In fact, I realize that a major hole in my game is the inability to call big bluffs. Perhaps that's where I need to start.

I going through a period of severe variance, and it REALLY SUCKS! I'm sure it has also affected my play, which is compounding the problem. I went from "my best run ever!" to "my worst run ever!", losing half my bankroll (while still practicing good bankroll management, at least).

Thanks for the response. My real answer is probably just to play the way I know I should.

[outsider13]

I wouldn't expect good poker ever in these. First, because most people at this level suck, and secondly, it's a turbo.

Play tight the first 2-3 levels and let the retards eliminate themselves. Save your chips for when you have to start shoving and winning races. Variance is ridiculously high in these.

[Cappy37]

Just play monopoly.

On a serious note: Skill gets you to the part where you need to outrun KT with your AJ... The sooner you accept this, the sooner you'll sleep at night. Skill gets you far enough to get lucky and have "getting lucky" matter.

[bigcoled]

BBFIDTS ... I'll say it... you're running bad and want to whine... I have no problem with that, there's just a place for it... you can't create a post of you making proper folds and say basically tell me not to fold there... you can play perfect poker and lose, for a tournament, for hours, days, weeks, months... it's part of the game...

[Darth Maple]

Personally I love these. In fact this is my starting point for the 2009 year. Raid the $2.20 turbos.

The only advice I can really give you is sit tight for the first few levels. Play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK hard in the early stages. I'm going broke with any of these hands in the early stages but thats not a problem I'll load another game up.

It won't be uncommon to not see a premium hand in the first few blind rounds but as one of the guys says above be prepared to pick your spots with an all in at the 100/200 + levels.

Remember we play to win and not to cash. Min. cashing in these don't make it worthwhile but winning is massive.

[HighwayStar]

If you get a stack just start shipping ATC in position from 36 players down to the bubble with vigorish---over limpers too if people are limping. If you're short headed down to the bubble, it's almost a fold2cash situation since there's ICM issues long term, but you can still shove into weak players from the SB/BTN/CO pretty effectively.
Before that just play uber TAG and win some flips.

That's th best way to play the $12s anyway, you might get called more in the $2s

fwiw a decent sample for a rough estimate of ROI in these is probably about 1000 and you could regularly go on +-40 BI swings

[Acekob]

Fair enough.

The type of "Worse" is relative. Against Weak-Tight (my favorite), I can win easily. Against hyper LAG, it's difficult, and that's essentially what I'm up against. Hyper LAG is not necessarily BAD per se, but it certainly can be (aggro-donk), and it's difficult not to fold the best hand, preflop and on the flop, turn, and river. In fact, I realize that a major hole in my game is the inability to call big bluffs. Perhaps that's where I need to start.

I going through a period of severe variance, and it REALLY SUCKS! I'm sure it has also affected my play, which is compounding the problem. I went from "my best run ever!" to "my worst run ever!", losing half my bankroll (while still practicing good bankroll management, at least).

Thanks for the response. My real answer is probably just to play the way I know I should.

QFT

I have only played donkaments for a few days, but at the beginning I found it quite easy, but now I'm just not loose enough!
Raise from early pos with TT or AQ, then see 2-3 players shove it in pf, call or fold?!
I allways end up folding, and they allways flip up hands like K9, 55, A rag etc

Guess you just have to realize the fact that you have to winn some preflop shoves to get deep in the ft.


and the thight at the start thing.
There is allways some players overwhelmingly aggresive at the start.
Bluffing at every streak etc. I like to call them down, fold to their bluffs a few times untill i get the nuts.
Then slowplay it as hell, usually end up with them all in by the river.


Just while writing this, villain bluffing at every hand, worked well for him so far:

Dealt to Acekob [Qc Qs]
El Patron49: calls 20
Carminia14: calls
20196942551: folds
uokkk: folds
allyourcoin: folds
turner_tt: folds
lothar531: calls 20
Acekob: raises 280 to 300
serafino43: folds
El Patron49: folds
Carminia14: calls
280lothar531: folds
*** FLOP *** [Th 6s 2s]
Acekob: bets 80
Carminia14: calls 80
*** TURN *** [Th 6s 2s] [6d]
Acekob: bets 100
Carminia14: raises 600 to 700
Acekob: calls 600
*** RIVER ***
[Th 6s 2s 6d] [6c]
Acekob: bets 100
Carminia14: raises 1320 to 1420 and is all-in
Acekob: calls 1320
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Carminia14: shows [5c As] (three of a kind, Sixes)
Acekob: shows [Qc Qs] (a full house, Sixes full of Queens)
Acekob collected 5060 from pot

Use long time and pretend you're grumbling over it when the villain reraises you, it works very well amazingly

[Bonedust]

Yes these are really high variance. Its all about volume, just keep playing a bunch of them and get in with the best of it. I use to play about 60 of these a day at 45% ROI which = $1 a game =$60 a day. Good for building a bankroll. If you only have $100 thats 40-50 buy ins for these. You can double your roll in a day or two. Try multitabling a bunch of them at once, you will make more $ and you wont get as pissed off when you get sucked out and lose because you have so many other tables up.

[UncleHoot]

BBFIDTS ... I'll say it... you're running bad and want to whine... I have no problem with that, there's just a place for it... you can't create a post of you making proper folds and say basically tell me not to fold there... you can play perfect poker and lose, for a tournament, for hours, days, weeks, months... it's part of the game...

That's the whole point, dumbass. I'm running bad, and wondering if it's because I'm playing nitty. The point was not to list all of my bad beats, but rather to ask for opinions on how to play these levels, when so many players are hyper LAG donks. I've received a few good answers, with the notable exception of you.

My badbeat list would be far longer than this. And, for the record, I only posted one bad beat out of the 3 examples.

[UncleHoot]

and the thight at the start thing.
There is allways some players overwhelmingly aggresive at the start.
Bluffing at every streak etc. I like to call them down, fold to their bluffs a few times untill i get the nuts.
Then slowplay it as hell, usually end up with them all in by the river.

Use long time and pretend you're grumbling over it when the villain reraises you, it works very well amazingly

Another play that works wonders from early position is the "check on the turn". Raise preflop, raise flop (c-bet), check the turn, push the river, but only against the hyper-laggiest. LOL!

I'm not sure how many of these I've played now, but I would guess at least a couple hundred, maybe 300-400. My ROI has been bouncing between 100%-150% (from sharkscope).

More than anything else, it sounds like I need to stay calm and controlled in the face of variance... Barry Greenstein, not Phil Hellmuth.

[UncleHoot]

If you get a stack just start shipping ATC in position from 36 players down to the bubble with vigorish---over limpers too if people are limping. If you're short headed down to the bubble, it's almost a fold2cash situation since there's ICM issues long term, but you can still shove into weak players from the SB/BTN/CO pretty effectively.
Before that just play uber TAG and win some flips.

That's th best way to play the $12s anyway, you might get called more in the $2s

fwiw a decent sample for a rough estimate of ROI in these is probably about 1000 and you could regularly go on +-40 BI swings

Thanks! That's about $80 for these (alone). With a bankroll around $500 (today), $80 swings really suck. LOL

Funny thing about all low-stakes tournaments early in the game:
Say you're dealt AKs in the small blind and there are 6 callers preflop (20), so you bump it up to 150. How many callers will you get? Exactly 6, unless the BB also calls, making it 7. Now the pot is 900+, you're basically either all-in or you check the flop.
Contrast that to a $20 buy-in where everyone simply folds, or you get, 1-2 callers hoping to hit their set. That's my experience, anyway, and it's definitely magnified in the turbo's.

For the record, a couple weeks ago, I went from over $600 to about $300 in just 4 days. I moved up in levels, lost my ass, moved back down, lost my ass, then continued to lose my ass with no end in sight. I got pretty tilty, though, which certainly made the problem worse. Still, I created that bankroll starting from $22 in October. I was expecting to have $1,000 now, but instead it's less than $500. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, as they say. Anybody have any advice on knowing when you should take a break?

[outsider13]

Thanks! That's about $80 for these (alone). With a bankroll around $500 (today), $80 swings really suck. LOL

Funny thing about all low-stakes tournaments early in the game:
Say you're dealt AKs in the small blind and there are 6 callers preflop (20), so you bump it up to 150. How many callers will you get? Exactly 6, unless the BB also calls, making it 7. Now the pot is 900+, you're basically either all-in or you check the flop.
Contrast that to a $20 buy-in where everyone simply folds, or you get, 1-2 callers hoping to hit their set. That's my experience, anyway, and it's definitely magnified in the turbo's.

For the record, a couple weeks ago, I went from over $600 to about $300 in just 4 days. I moved up in levels, lost my ass, moved back down, lost my ass, then continued to lose my ass with no end in sight. I got pretty tilty, though, which certainly made the problem worse. Still, I created that bankroll starting from $22 in October. I was expecting to have $1,000 now, but instead it's less than $500. Don't count your chickens before they hatch, as they say. Anybody have any advice on knowing when you should take a break?

I often just shove here at this buyin. Actually, I do pretty much exclusively. You get too many callers if you even bump it up to 150 and your hand is pretty much useless 4 way oop if you miss the flop. You'll want to see all 5 cards remaining.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

turbo 180 mans can have 100 buyin swings. those things are very high variance.

[BeaverStyle]

That's the whole point, dumbass. I'm running bad, and wondering if it's because I'm playing nitty. The point was not to list all of my bad beats, but rather to ask for opinions on how to play these levels, when so many players are hyper LAG donks. I've received a few good answers, with the notable exception of you.

My badbeat list would be far longer than this. And, for the record, I only posted one bad beat out of the 3 examples.

LOL, calm down buddy. Someone has to play devil's advocate here, and he did. He didn't even say anything malicious. Get a grip. And stop playing turbos.