14 replies to this topic

[CobaltBlue]

Bodog 5/10 NLHE (4-handed)

Cobalt $1124
Button $1077

Cobalt is BB w/ . Have only been at the table for around 15-20 minutes. I've observed that this is villain's standard raise size, and I really haven't been involved in much.

Pre-flop:
1 fold, Button raises to $24, 1 fold, Cobalt calls

Flop ($53): (2 players)
Cobalt checks, Button bets $34, Cobalt raises to $104, Button calls

Turn ($261): (2 players)
Cobalt bets $135, Button calls

River ($531): (2 players)
Cobalt bets $335


Thoughts?

Edit: My bet sizes are roughly the size they'd be if I wasn't bluffing.

[Giggidy]

Thoughts?

What are you doing/planning if he 4bets the flop? Fold/Shove?

[CobaltBlue]

What are you doing/planning if he 4bets the flop? Fold/Shove?

Yeah...folding unless it's a min-raise or something.

[Acid_Knight]

I'm not sure how your bet sizing works for the hands that you're repping here, because I know you do that differently than most.

I would think that you're mostly trying to rep a flush or boat here and I think that given the cards that fell, I think you're betting slightly more somewhere to get max value since the only hands he's really gotta be super timid about putting $$ in with are his overpairs, since all other hands should have trips+ here and you wanna put a little more pressure on him.

[CobaltBlue]

I would think that you're mostly trying to rep a flush or boat here and I think that given the cards that fell, I think you're betting slightly more somewhere to get max value since the only hands he's really gotta be super timid about putting $$ in with are his overpairs, since all other hands should have trips+ here and you wanna put a little more pressure on him.

My feeling on the flop and turn is that he has some sort of overpair. We've taken a strong enough line to represent that we can beat that, yes?

[mtdesmoines]

My feeling on the flop and turn is that he has some sort of overpair. We've taken a strong enough line to represent that we can beat that, yes?

I think as long as the villain is familiar with your lighter betting patterns.
If this is an unfamiliar villain, we could be in trouble with this assertion.

[DonkSlayer]

I think as long as the villain is familiar with your lighter betting patterns.
If this is an unfamiliar villain, we could be in trouble with this assertion.

Are we making this move, postflop on, with ATC, Cobalt?

[tskillz187]

I'd play every street differently. I would fold pf most of the time, the times I didn't I would 3bet and try to take it down. On the flop I would b/3bet if I had just called preflop, just like I would with flush draws, sets, and 2pair hands. If I had 3bet pf I would probably check and go for C/R.

[CobaltBlue]

Are we making this move, postflop on, with ATC, Cobalt?

If I have a flush draw, a different straight draw, or a set, I'd play it pretty much the exact same way.

[CobaltBlue]

I'd play every street differently. I would fold pf most of the time, the times I didn't I would 3bet and try to take it down. On the flop I would b/3bet if I had just called preflop, just like I would with flush draws, sets, and 2pair hands. If I had 3bet pf I would probably check and go for C/R.

If you're folding a hand like this to a 2.4xR from the button in a 4-handed game...that's rather tight. I can see 3-betting, but it doesn't fit into my style as much, and bloats the pot OOP with a speculative hand. I really don't like donkbetting, but if you'll support it with a range that you're willing to 3-bet, I'm cool with that. Three-betting and then check/raising seems rather FPS to me.

[tskillz187]

If you're folding a hand like this to a 2.4xR from the button in a 4-handed game...that's rather tight. I can see 3-betting, but it doesn't fit into my style as much, and bloats the pot OOP with a speculative hand. I really don't like donkbetting, but if you'll support it with a range that you're willing to 3-bet, I'm cool with that. Three-betting and then check/raising seems rather FPS to me.

I didn't realize it was 4 handed my bad. I guess I don't play 4 handed enough but I still don't like defending suited connectors, I'm such a blind nit though. I hate being OOP.

I think I 3bet and check a decent amount, it's very villain dependent. Sometime I 3bet pf because I think he has a wide range and also is willing to fold to lots of 3bets then I'll 3bet wide, but if he calls the 3bet, I generally check it to him, and based on his tendencies and my hand strength I'm check/folding, check/calling, or check/raising.

I dunno, I don't mind giving up the lead and c/f a lot to also give rope a lot too. My C/R after a 3bet is generally going to be drawy hands, or against a stack that I think will commit himself with the flop bet. So if it's a stack that will commit himself I'd be doing it with a strong hand, and if it's just a regular stack it'd be as a semibluff. Exploitable? Absolutely, but I think it'd be tough to pick up on and hopefully I'm table selecting good enough for it not to matter.

[DonkSlayer]

Bleh. I think the turn card is so bad for us that I just give it up on the turn, c/f. Shyt happens.

[CobaltBlue]

I didn't realize it was 4 handed my bad. I guess I don't play 4 handed enough but I still don't like defending suited connectors, I'm such a blind nit though. I hate being OOP.

I think I 3bet and check a decent amount, it's very villain dependent. Sometime I 3bet pf because I think he has a wide range and also is willing to fold to lots of 3bets then I'll 3bet wide, but if he calls the 3bet, I generally check it to him, and based on his tendencies and my hand strength I'm check/folding, check/calling, or check/raising.

I dunno, I don't mind giving up the lead and c/f a lot to also give rope a lot too. My C/R after a 3bet is generally going to be drawy hands, or against a stack that I think will commit himself with the flop bet. So if it's a stack that will commit himself I'd be doing it with a strong hand, and if it's just a regular stack it'd be as a semibluff. Exploitable? Absolutely, but I think it'd be tough to pick up on and hopefully I'm table selecting good enough for it not to matter.

Here's the thing...if the villain raises to a more typical 3.5-4x, I think a fold's perfectly reasonable. As it stands, we're just getting too good of odds. I don't go around trying to play suited connectors OOP, but if the situation arises, I'll do so. Three-betting with them regularly pre-flop isn't really in line with my overall strategy. I'd generally rather keep the pot smaller, especially OOP, until I can take a look at the flop. I'd sort of prefer to 3-bet in this situation for value or as a pure bluff.

I think 3-betting pre-flop is fine, but I think it's a little wonky to go for a c/r then. It's not necessarily bad, and given certain stack sizes, and opponents, I think it'd work great. In these games and given these stack sizes, I'm not really sure that I like it as much. Like say I'd 3-bet here pre to $94 (roughly what I'd guess I would've) and he calls. The pot's $193. I check, and he bets $150. If I'm sticking with my c/r, I basically am committed to stacking off. Cause if I c/r to a normalish $450, there's just no way I can fold for the rest...while just sticking it all-in now is going to be a pretty decent overbet. It's certainly a strong line, but I don't see the necessity. Let's say that villain started the hand with more like $800. That line becomes more attractive. If we're a lot deeper, it could work also.

Also, for whatever reason, I think that a lot of villains put you on AK when you c/r the flop after having the lead pre.

Bleh. I think the turn card is so bad for us that I just give it up on the turn, c/f. Shyt happens.

Based on my read, that card should be scarier for him than us.

[tskillz187]

I'd sort of prefer to 3-bet in this situation for value or as a pure bluff.

First off thanks for the detailed response. Isn't 3betting here a complete bluff? I'm not sure I understand what hands you're 3bet bluffing with, like 62? Your hand is the kind I 3bet bluff with because, although 8 high isn't good, there are an okay amount of flops I can play strong. I think you think this hand is strong enough to just play on it's merits, but that just leads me to the original question of what hands are you 3bet bluffing?

I think 3-betting pre-flop is fine, but I think it's a little wonky to go for a c/r then. It's not necessarily bad, and given certain stack sizes, and opponents, I think it'd work great. In these games and given these stack sizes, I'm not really sure that I like it as much. Like say I'd 3-bet here pre to $94 (roughly what I'd guess I would've) and he calls. The pot's $193. I check, and he bets $150. If I'm sticking with my c/r, I basically am committed to stacking off. Cause if I c/r to a normalish $450, there's just no way I can fold for the rest...while just sticking it all-in now is going to be a pretty decent overbet. It's certainly a strong line, but I don't see the necessity. Let's say that villain started the hand with more like $800. That line becomes more attractive. If we're a lot deeper, it could work also.

The reason that I'd want to c/r a hand like this is because I think I could get folds out of his middlish overpairs. I think just betting out will make it much tougher and he might just call flop, call turn, and find himself so invested and with such nice odds to talk himself into calling river with like 99. I agree that if you C/R you are going to be stacking off whenever he 3bets all in, but I thought that would make up for the times you get folds as opposed to getting called on your initial bet.

Also, for whatever reason, I think that a lot of villains put you on AK when you c/r the flop after having the lead pre.

This is a pretty valid point. If your C/R makes your hand look weaker then obv it isn't going to work well. That would certainly be a level thing, I'm playing $100 max and I'd hafta think someone was awfully tricky and good to C/R AK vs me here. I think the more normal play if he 3bet pf and I called would be for him to c-bet or just over shove. But you think it's more likely someone with AK is going to go for C/R than overshove?

[CobaltBlue]

First off thanks for the detailed response. Isn't 3betting here a complete bluff? I'm not sure I understand what hands you're 3bet bluffing with, like 62? Your hand is the kind I 3bet bluff with because, although 8 high isn't good, there are an okay amount of flops I can play strong. I think you think this hand is strong enough to just play on it's merits, but that just leads me to the original question of what hands are you 3bet bluffing?

The reason that I'd want to c/r a hand like this is because I think I could get folds out of his middlish overpairs. I think just betting out will make it much tougher and he might just call flop, call turn, and find himself so invested and with such nice odds to talk himself into calling river with like 99. I agree that if you C/R you are going to be stacking off whenever he 3bets all in, but I thought that would make up for the times you get folds as opposed to getting called on your initial bet.

This is a pretty valid point. If your C/R makes your hand look weaker then obv it isn't going to work well. That would certainly be a level thing, I'm playing $100 max and I'd hafta think someone was awfully tricky and good to C/R AK vs me here. I think the more normal play if he 3bet pf and I called would be for him to c-bet or just over shove. But you think it's more likely someone with AK is going to go for C/R than overshove?

It's not a complete bluff since we have a hand that can reasonably make some strong hands or draws. I'd consider it a bit of a pre-flop semi-bluff. So yeah, if I'm going to bluff, I'd sort of prefer trash that's very unlikely to have any value and should be reasonably easy to play post-flop.

I understand the point on the middlish pairs. The thing is...if you 3-bet me and I was holding a middlish pair, I'm probably checking behind and not giving you the chance to c/r me...and then calling the turn and river. If you bet, I have to consider whether I'm going to try to call down 3 barrels.

Not necessarily more likely...I just think that a lot of villains are going to get stubborn against a c/r in that scenario. I used to see it fairly regularly (the c/r w/ AK-high). It's kind of a strange play though.