92 replies to this topic

[Roark_8]

Preface with the usual I'm new to Limit, still trying to tighten it up. Below are 2 hands I wasn't sure about. PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with [6h], [7h]. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (5 SB) [2d], [5d], [8s] (5 players)SB bets, Hero ...Its a marginal call, correct? From my calculations, there are 16 SBs (plus ~3 from calls behind) in the pot and its 3 more to call the cap. It'd be an easier call if I had a BD flush draw or if the 2 diamond outs were clean. I'm getting used to adding suited connectors to my playable cards, although in this case I got a free look at the flop. Thoughts on what to do here? Second, I'm usually pretty ABC, but I think I got some TPS on this hand. PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ks], [Qs]. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.Flop: (12 SB) [9s], [Qh], [7s] (6 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.Great flop for me and I bet out. I get raised, so I think it's a good flop to try a a stop n go as there are alot of cards to improve my hand. Turn: (10.50 BB) [3c] (4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.River: (13.50 BB) [Jc] (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.Final Pot: 16.50 BBUnfortunately, my hand never improves and I just call it down. Did I try to get too tricky then play it too weak when it doesn't go as planned? Roark-8

[BeanGW]

The first hand is very interesting, and I'd really like to see what Chris and KDawg have to say...I would probably fold. With 6 outs to the sinch hand you're looking for 6.7 to 1 odds on your money with one card to come. You figure you are getting 19-3 on your money here because the other dudes will likely both call behind you. So you're getting approx 6.2:1. Although you can argue that implied odds might give ya better odds down the road if your hand hits, you can also quite easily be redrawn on the river (either to a higher straight, the flush, or a full boat, if someone's already made a set).Second hand... you gotta bet the turn I think you are still probably well ahead here... and against a few players I would think you definitely have the pot equity edge. I'd definitely bet the river as well. I doubt anybody made a straight, and there's no possible flush, your hand is likely best.

[amarillotg]

hand 1 - call and see the turn. unless the 3rd flush card drops i would see the river too. the pot is way too large and you have a great draw.hand 2 - 3 bet this flop and lead the turn no matter what comes. flop raiser could be looking for a free card on the turn and you most probably have the best hand. even if flush card comes you still have a king high flush.

[Makata]

amarillotg said:

hand 1 - call and see the turn.  unless the 3rd flush card drops i would see the river too.  the pot is way too large and you have a great draw.

Completely disagree. You have 6 outs. It's almost a given at this point someone has a flush draw. Even if they don't, you have to play like there could be one or you'll wind up paying one off far too often. Not only do you need to hit a 6 outter, you then need to dodge ALOT of bullets for the river. 9 diamonds, and 8 more unseen cards pair the board.SB almost certainly has 2p / set, as virtually nothing else can cap with 3 people behind. UTG could easily have rags or just MP/TP and was trying to steal, I'd put MP1 on a comperable hand to SB or one hell of a draw (67d, 69d, etc). Factoring out UTG, I'd say of the 17 unseen bad cards, 4 are in in the hands of SB and MP1, a flush draw, and 2p/set. Thus after hitting your 6 outter (could possibly be even fewer, if eg MP1 has 69d), you have to dodge a 13 out river (out of 42 cards left), leaving you with odds of 6/43 * 29/42 * 2 or about 19% (only 10% to hit your straight first).It is costing you 3 SB now, with a 15 SB pot (not 16 .. 5 preflop, 1 from you, 4 from SB, 2 from UTG, 3 from MP1), or exactly 5 to 1. You'd think that would satisfy the odds, and in fact it would if you had 3 SB's left in front of you and you were calling all in. But the turn is DEFINATELY getting bet and I'd put at least 40% (being conservative) that it will be raised, especially if UTG stays and actually has something, increasing your investment by at least 2, and up to 8 SB. Plus, on the river, the flush draw is going to fold, and if a 4 or 9 comes, 2 pair definately isn't going to raise/3-bet and most people with a set wouldn't.This is an easy, easy fold from my perspective. Frankly, I'd fold even if the SB just called the 3 bet and didn't cap. It's just too easy to lose a hell of alot of chips here.

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hand 2 - 3 bet this flop and lead the turn no matter what comes.  flop raiser could be looking for a free card on the turn and you most probably have the best hand.  even if flush card comes you still have a king high flush.

The first line is bad advice. If the turn is a 9, there's a very good chance you're drawing to 2 queens and 8 spades (unless he's already hit the boat). Potentially check a turn 7 too. Turn Ad, Ac, or Ah is also check. You can never fold this hand, and I agree 3 betting flop is correct.However one note on the hand: why on earth did you raise a mid-range hand out of position into a huge field? IMO a raise should always, always accomplish one of 2 things:a) Greatly increase the chance a player(s) will foldB) Increase pot for a hand you are an overwhelming favorite to win.Your raise did neither of those, so I fail to see why you decided to raise. It only increases your commitment in a hand you could very easily lose AND it gives fishes better odds to chase (e.g. if board was Qd Kd 9c, and you got the oppurtunity to check-raise, most T's and J's that haven't committed yet would fold when faced with 2 bets in a pot < 10 SB, but would definately call if the pot was closer (or over) to 15 SB, especially if it was a diamond.

[wrto4556]

I don't like calling in hand 1. When you do make your hand, it will get outdrawn very frequently and you are BARELY getting odds.3-bet the flop on hand 2.

[Roark_8]

Makata said:

This is an easy, easy fold from my perspective. Frankly, I'd fold even if the SB just called the 3 bet and didn't cap. It's just too easy to lose a hell of alot of chips here.

I agree with most of what you said. But isn't this hand directly what Ed Miller is talking about here (link stolen from amarillotg's post): http://forumserver.t...=&view=&sb=5&o=The pot is huge. I'm getting marginal odds. Sure, I have to hit and dodge but its still a huge pot. I just want to see the fine line between fishily chasing and playing big pots aggressively.

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However one note on the hand: why on earth did you raise a mid-range hand out of position into a huge field? IMO a raise should always, always accomplish one of 2 things:a) Greatly increase the chance a player(s) will foldB) Increase pot for a hand you are an overwhelming favorite to win.

I thought it was pretty standard to raise KQs in microlimits in any position if its limped to you. Roark-8

[wrto4556]

The pot isn't necissarily big. It is after everyone capped...do you see the difference?

[KDawgCometh]

Roark_8 said:

Preface with the usual I'm new to Limit, still trying to tighten it up. Below are 2 hands I wasn't sure about. PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with [6h], [7h]. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.Flop: (5 SB) [2d], [5d], [8s] (5 players)SB bets, Hero ...Its a marginal call, correct? From my calculations, there are 16 SBs (plus ~3 from calls behind) in the pot and its 3 more to call the cap. It'd be an easier call if I had a BD flush draw or if the 2 diamond outs were clean. I'm getting used to adding suited connectors to my playable cards, although in this case I got a free look at the flop. Thoughts on what to do here? easy easy easy fold on this flop. don't ever call in this situation, your hand is just too marginal to continueSecond, I'm usually pretty ABC, but I think I got some TPS on this hand. PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ks], [Qs]. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.Flop: (12 SB) [9s], [Qh], [7s] (6 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.Great flop for me and I bet out. I get raised, so I think it's a good flop to try a a stop n go as there are alot of cards to improve my hand. threebet thhis flop you wimpTurn: (10.50 BB) [3c] (4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.this isn't a stop n go, its just a call. if it was a stop n go then you'd bet it right out. don't use a term if you aren't doing what you say you're going forRiver: (13.50 BB) [Jc] (3 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.Final Pot: 16.50 BBUnfortunately, my hand never improves and I just call it down. Did I try to get too tricky then play it too weak when it doesn't go as planned? wtf do you want to improve to. you have TP2K, don't ever play a hand like this againRoark-8

[NickTheKid]

Calling the flop is -EV friend, fold.

[Roark_8]

wrto4556 said:

The pot isn't necissarily big. It is after everyone capped...do you see the difference?

Yeah, after I posted and thought about it, I realised without the raise PF, the pot's size was a result of the flop, negating alot of Miller is saying. I posted the hand because after I hit and it held up, the SB tore into me. I'm assuming he had A 3 diamonds according to his talk. The two others had overpairs. Guess he was correct for doing so. Oh well, lesson learned from you guys and I still came out ahead.

[amarillotg]

Makata said:

amarillotg said:

hand 1 - call and see the turn. unless the 3rd flush card drops i would see the river too. the pot is way too large and you have a great draw.

Completely disagree. You have 6 outs. It's almost a given at this point someone has a flush draw. Even if they don't, you have to play like there could be one or you'll wind up paying one off far too often. Not only do you need to hit a 6 outter, you then need to dodge ALOT of bullets for the river. 9 diamonds, and 8 more unseen cards pair the board.SB almost certainly has 2p / set, as virtually nothing else can cap with 3 people behind. UTG could easily have rags or just MP/TP and was trying to steal, I'd put MP1 on a comperable hand to SB or one hell of a draw (67d, 69d, etc). Factoring out UTG, I'd say of the 17 unseen bad cards, 4 are in in the hands of SB and MP1, a flush draw, and 2p/set. Thus after hitting your 6 outter (could possibly be even fewer, if eg MP1 has 69d), you have to dodge a 13 out river (out of 42 cards left), leaving you with odds of 6/43 * 29/42 * 2 or about 19% (only 10% to hit your straight first).It is costing you 3 SB now, with a 15 SB pot (not 16 .. 5 preflop, 1 from you, 4 from SB, 2 from UTG, 3 from MP1), or exactly 5 to 1. You'd think that would satisfy the odds, and in fact it would if you had 3 SB's left in front of you and you were calling all in. But the turn is DEFINATELY getting bet and I'd put at least 40% (being conservative) that it will be raised, especially if UTG stays and actually has something, increasing your investment by at least 2, and up to 8 SB. Plus, on the river, the flush draw is going to fold, and if a 4 or 9 comes, 2 pair definately isn't going to raise/3-bet and most people with a set wouldn't.This is an easy, easy fold from my perspective. Frankly, I'd fold even if the SB just called the 3 bet and didn't cap. It's just too easy to lose a hell of alot of chips here.

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hand 2 - 3 bet this flop and lead the turn no matter what comes. flop raiser could be looking for a free card on the turn and you most probably have the best hand. even if flush card comes you still have a king high flush.

The first line is bad advice. If the turn is a 9, there's a very good chance you're drawing to 2 queens and 8 spades (unless he's already hit the boat). Potentially check a turn 7 too. Turn Ad, Ac, or Ah is also check. You can never fold this hand, and I agree 3 betting flop is correct.However one note on the hand: why on earth did you raise a mid-range hand out of position into a huge field? IMO a raise should always, always accomplish one of 2 things:a) Greatly increase the chance a player(s) will foldB) Increase pot for a hand you are an overwhelming favorite to win.Your raise did neither of those, so I fail to see why you decided to raise. It only increases your commitment in a hand you could very easily lose AND it gives fishes better odds to chase (e.g. if board was Qd Kd 9c, and you got the oppurtunity to check-raise, most T's and J's that haven't committed yet would fold when faced with 2 bets in a pot < 10 SB, but would definately call if the pot was closer (or over) to 15 SB, especially if it was a diamond.

hand 1 - i expected to get flamed on this one. simple fact is i've been digging into some Ed Miller stuff and he is adamant about folding in large pots like this one. say you are drawing to 6 outs, the pot odds might not be there (its close) don't you think your getting paid off large if a non diamond 9 hits? i won't argue this, just stating my case.hand 2 - i disagree with your analysis. it just screams weak and scared. im not going to go into it further, thats just my opinion.

[Emptyeye]

Yeah, totally 3-bet that flop on hand 2. If UTG+1 has been paying attention, he's probably putting you on a continuation bet (Or he should be, as you should just about always follow preflop aggression with postflop aggression) and may even have a piece of it, but you're still ahead here more often than not. If he caps, then you may consider slowing down, though I probably lead the turn no matter what here too.

[KDawgCometh]

amarillotg said:

hand 1 - i expected to get flamed on this one. simple fact is i've been digging into some Ed Miller stuff and he is adamant about folding in large pots like this one. say you are drawing to 6 outs, the pot odds might not be there (its close) don't you think your getting paid off large if a non diamond 9 hits? i won't argue this, just stating my case..

but the thing is, is that Ed Miller wouldn't advocate you call here at all. You aren't pushing a made hand or a strong draw. YOu are drawing to 6 outs and you aren't getting the odds. Even if you do hit your hand, there are many edraws agasint you. It is not inconcieveable that one of the villians has a set to, which brings up another redraw that can beat your hand other than the flush draw. The hand offically sucks with all of this action, and you will be losing more money in the long run making this call and chasing this down then you would by hitting it. If all of our outs were clean, it'd be different, but our outs are tainted with all of this action. This is where you are mixing up the folding in a big pot idea

[Makata]

Roark_8 said:

I thought it was pretty standard to raise KQs in microlimits in any position if its limped to you.

Why? What are you accomplishing by raising.Realize the key to poker success is the ability to make the best possible move on every play. By "best possible move" I mean the one which, over the long haul, wins you the most--or in this case, costs you the least. How does raising a marginal hand hand out of position into a huge field help you win money? Your likelihood of losing increases substantially, as fish are more likely to chase, and no real pair is going to fold. Plus the amount you win will not be dramatically more: 1 SB more per person, plus perhaps a few turn bets from fish, and river bets from bad pairs.If you're just trying to follow convential wisdom, be my guest, but otherwise, please do explain how raising in this situation is profitable.

amarillotg said:

hand 1 - i expected to get flamed on this one. simple fact is i've been digging into some Ed Miller stuff and he is adamant about folding in large pots like this one. say you are drawing to 6 outs, the pot odds might not be there (its close) don't you think your getting paid off large if a non diamond 9 hits? i won't argue this, just stating my case.

Realize your situation. You didn't raise preflop, and you just called on flop, and perhaps turn. Then when 9c hits, you raise. Sure, some idiots with top 2 will continue to fire, and maybe you'll get lucky off of them. But I think it's fair to say most people will simply call your raise, and check/call river unimproved. If I had bottom set in this situation and a third diamond hit, I would probably check. If it gets 3 bet before it reaches me I will likely fold(possibly even just 2 bet, though I doubt it).I'm probably preaching to the choir, but I'll mention it just in case. It's very important you don't get into the habit of being results oriented bitter. In this hand, were you to fold and then turn is 9c, river a blank, and top set vs middle set caps both expensive streets, you can't fault yourself for your play at the time. You didn't know is was going to get played that way. All you had to work with was your 2 cards, the board, and any reads/info you have on the players.

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hand 2 - i disagree with your analysis. it just screams weak and scared. im not going to go into it further, thats just my opinion.

Maybe I'm just too used to being sucked out on, I don't know. I also know that whenever I flop a plush (my own term .. pair + flush draw, such as hand 2), I have 13 cards left to make 2p/trips/flush, which is something like 44%, and it always SEEMS like it comes far less, or when it does come, everyone folds.However, even that aside, you have to consider the fact you might be beat. You have a great hand sure, but there are many better. It's very common for online players to raise middle pair / ace kicker, or even just overs with an ace on a fairly connected flop.If turn was a 9 (pairing the board), carefully consider what hands you're actually beating, then consider which of those would still play with you. The number is fairly slim. Worser kicked or no-kicked queens (only 2) and flush draws is about it. Most people with bottom pair would muck, gutshots would likely muck, even OE's could as they see the pair. I just don't see how it's profitable to lead out when your hand is still very much a draw. Top pair sure, but you're practically dead to AQ, KK, AA, 9x, 77 .. and even hands that could call you like TJ, 8T, Axs, or even AK all have plenty of ways to win. Or, if an ace hits, you now don't even have top pair.Most of my poker friends tell me I'm too passive, but then again I don't lose $300 pots because I couldn't stop raising my 1 card non-nut straight (won't mention any names).

[wrto4556]

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Why? What are you accomplishing by raising.

You're exploiting an equity. !!!Are you one of those guys that doesn't raise AKo on the button after a bunch of limpers?

[amarillotg]

KDawgCometh said:

amarillotg said:

hand 1 - i expected to get flamed on this one. simple fact is i've been digging into some Ed Miller stuff and he is adamant about folding in large pots like this one. say you are drawing to 6 outs, the pot odds might not be there (its close) don't you think your getting paid off large if a non diamond 9 hits? i won't argue this, just stating my case..

but the thing is, is that Ed Miller wouldn't advocate you call here at all. You aren't pushing a made hand or a strong draw. YOu are drawing to 6 outs and you aren't getting the odds. Even if you do hit your hand, there are many edraws agasint you. It is not inconcieveable that one of the villians has a set to, which brings up another redraw that can beat your hand other than the flush draw. The hand offically sucks with all of this action, and you will be losing more money in the long run making this call and chasing this down then you would by hitting it. If all of our outs were clean, it'd be different, but our outs are tainted with all of this action. This is where you are mixing up the folding in a big pot idea

good enough. maybe im taking what he says too far.

[amarillotg]

[/quote]Most of my poker friends tell me I'm too passive, but then again I don't lose $300 pots because I couldn't stop raising my 1 card non-nut straight (won't mention any names).[/quote]dude, i think you just answered your own question here. if your scared that the board will pair and make someones middle pair into trips, then your playing too weak tight. I'm curios if you've read Championship Limit Holdem by TJ and McEvoy because i thought a lot like you when i first started playing and the only book i had read was the afore mentioned.Please note that i'm not flaming you, its a sincere question.

[BeanGW]

Makata said:

Most of my poker friends tell me I'm too passive, but then again I don't lose $300 pots because I couldn't stop raising my 1 card non-nut straight (won't mention any names).

If you're not raising KQs from the blinds, you won't be winning too many of those $300 pots either. It's a +EV play, and if you miss out on the raise you are losing money.If you want more details, read SSHE by Sklansky. High card strength, suitedness and connectedness are the three valuable attributes of non-pair hands. You've got all three here, and therefore you raise. I guess that's the "standard" argument for why you raise.

[TheIceman05]

You're kidding about not raising the field of limpers with KQs, right? You raise hands when it's mathematically appropriate, NOT when you "are an overwhelming favorite to win." It's like flopping a flush draw, and checkraising the flop when there's a lot of action. Sure, you're not going to win more than half the time. But you're going to win more than other people out there with crappier draws. You're paying the favorite, but the rest of the field is paying YOU more than YOU pay him.Ice

[Dirtydutch]

wrto4556 said:

I don't like calling in hand 1. When you do make your hand, it will get outdrawn very frequently and you are BARELY getting odds.3-bet the flop on hand 2.

I'd even keep raising on the turn.thats a huge board.also, if your new, I'm guessing this is pretty low limit.If not, Advice may differ.