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Small Ball Concepts In Nl Cash


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#1 BigRob1107

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 01:47 AM

So hi all havent posted in a while because quite frankly I have been playing NL cash alot and posting on 2p2 and deucescracked since those are geared mainly in the Nl cash games. But i wanted to talk about some stuff I learned from daniel that has helped my cash game play and reduced variance in my game. So obviously tournaments and cash are different, in an MTT we are concerned with first stack protection and 2nd value. In a cash game max value is essential to be a winning player. But I was having swingy sessions and to be honest it was stressfull. I was cbetting 80% pot and pots were gettting big fast especially @ the 25nl loose passive games. So I started to c bet smaller on all flops with my entire range and decide to bloat pots on the turn given board textue, opponent tendecies, opponent range, and relative hand strenght vs his range. So the advantages of making smaller bets IMO are I save money when I am c betting with air. I don't narrow his calling range when I have a stong hand to hands with decent equity vs my hand. I leave my self room to 2 barrell if I turn or river a good bluf card and I keep pots manageable and decide if it is going to be a big pot on later streets. Also exercising pot control in hit or miss flops is essenial . Checking back AT on the A88 board instead of going for thin value. Also not adding a extra BBs to my raise until there are 2 limpers. keeping pots managable in NL cash will help anyone who is trying to be a winning cash players in the modern online cash games given the how aggro they have become. Just wanted to share this with other pvt players out there and let them know this stuff works .

#2 rayen

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 03:38 AM

View PostBigRob1107, on Thursday, December 4th, 2008, 2:47 AM, said:

So hi all havent posted in a while because quite frankly I have been playing NL cash alot and posting on 2p2 and deucescracked since those are geared mainly in the Nl cash games. But i wanted to talk about some stuff I learned from daniel that has helped my cash game play and reduced variance in my game. So obviously tournaments and cash are different, in an MTT we are concerned with first stack protection and 2nd value. In a cash game max value is essential to be a winning player. But I was having swingy sessions and to be honest it was stressfull. I was cbetting 80% pot and pots were gettting big fast especially @ the 25nl loose passive games. So I started to c bet smaller on all flops with my entire range and decide to bloat pots on the turn given board textue, opponent tendecies, opponent range, and relative hand strenght vs his range. So the advantages of making smaller bets IMO are I save money when I am c betting with air. I don't narrow his calling range when I have a stong hand to hands with decent equity vs my hand. I leave my self room to 2 barrell if I turn or river a good bluf card and I keep pots manageable and decide if it is going to be a big pot on later streets. Also exercising pot control in hit or miss flops is essenial . Checking back AT on the A88 board instead of going for thin value. Also not adding a extra BBs to my raise until there are 2 limpers. keeping pots managable in NL cash will help anyone who is trying to be a winning cash players in the modern online cash games given the how aggro they have become. Just wanted to share this with other pvt players out there and let them know this stuff works .
Yeah I have the same view. See so many players that try to take a stab at the pot and bets like 70-100% of the pot becuase they think that they have greater chance of taking it down. The truth is that when they do get called and they have invested so much that its harder to fold a hand ... especially if they f.ex pick up a flush draw on turn or pick up top pair. I try be very agressive with minimum bets as possible... that way when I do have a hand they will in many cases pay me off becuase they think im a maniac :club:

#3 Emmser

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:04 PM

View Postrayen, on Thursday, December 4th, 2008, 6:38 AM, said:

Yeah I have the same view. See so many players that try to take a stab at the pot and bets like 70-100% of the pot becuase they think that they have greater chance of taking it down. The truth is that when they do get called and they have invested so much that its harder to fold a hand ... especially if they f.ex pick up a flush draw on turn or pick up top pair. I try be very agressive with minimum bets as possible... that way when I do have a hand they will in many cases pay me off becuase they think im a maniac :club:
It works great in low stakes NL Heads Up as well. Players get so sick of you min raising preflop and betting small on flop they start repopping you.When you do pick up a monster it is much easier to get paid off because they always think you are weak. Also, because you raise small pre it allows themto call with worse cards then they would call a 3 or 4x raise with and once they flop a pair heads up it is much tougher for them to get away from.Small Ball all the way!
"You can't lose what you don't put in the middle.
But you can't win much either." Mike M

#4 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:47 PM

Ahhh... success. You guys are really getting it. It's all about cutting corners and trimming the fat! Why bet $80 when $65 will do...
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#5 BigRob1107

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:05 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Thursday, December 4th, 2008, 7:47 PM, said:

Ahhh... success. You guys are really getting it. It's all about cutting corners and trimming the fat! Why bet $80 when $65 will do...
Also daniel what has helped me out is realizing how many streets of value I can get. The example of AK on the A88 board I am never getting 3 streets of value unless I am beat Then he's just value towning me, but also what bad cards can really come. So checking back to get value form PP's on later streets is best IMO. Also if you read this @ the small stakes Nl cash I have been adjusting my pf raise sizes based on my position. @ 6max Nl cash I open 3.5x utg-c/0 and 3x on the button. If I have aggro dynamic with the blinds I open to 2.5x on the btn to be able to call 3 bets with a wider range. I feel like I can out play them on alot of dry flops that just miss them like the Kxx or 553 rainbow. I also open smaller if the stacks are small.Thanks for getting more involved with PVT. Can't wait to re-register and play Mtt's again. Live SSMTT's are what small ball was made for . They don't fold top pair!!!!!!!!

#6 BigRob1107

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:10 PM

View PostEmmser, on Thursday, December 4th, 2008, 7:04 PM, said:

It works great in low stakes NL Heads Up as well. Players get so sick of you min raising preflop and betting small on flop they start repopping you.When you do pick up a monster it is much easier to get paid off because they always think you are weak. Also, because you raise small pre it allows themto call with worse cards then they would call a 3 or 4x raise with and once they flop a pair heads up it is much tougher for them to get away from.Small Ball all the way!
Havent played HU cash in a while but i open to 3x and adjust based on players to exploit them. I play a pretty tight range for HU cash bc @ 50NL they play every hand. So given the types of hans I open I don't mind pots being a little bigger. Also keep in mind I am in position so I have pot control. But I adjust to the min raise if he is never calling OOP because if he the times he folds I have to be successful on the steal less often and I can call 3 bets with more hands. Or if he 3 bets most of his hands I make the adjustment.

#7 IanParker

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 01:19 AM

Thanks guys, this is exactly what I was looking for. BTW, what exactly of the 20% flop textures do you not bet on? Why the 80%? I know to not bet at boards that likely hit my opponent's range but it seems like more than 20% to me. Any tips anyone? ANd thanks again for the posts.P.S. Dan you are the man.

#8 IanParker

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 04:15 AM

wow. well I re-read that and am laughing now. Nevermind lol. I like the preflop adjustments tip as well. So, what if I am in a mostly loose-passive 6max? What do you think is the best strategy adjustment there?

#9 drewlovesomaha

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 12:48 PM

I think the biggest advantages are two fold- 1) you gain information about your opponents holdings at a cheaper price 2) You leave yourself room to protect your hand on the turn and price out drawing hands (or at least give them the wrong odds to call) I only play NLHE once a week, preferring mixed games, but when I do the biggest mistake I see is people building a big pot on the flop with top pair hands, not even leaving themselves enough chips to bet half the pot on the turn, so their opponent gets to see the turn and river for less than half the pot. (The game I normally play is 2-5 with a 200 min and 500 max buy in and almost all the players buy in for 200)Example Player A 120 stack Player B 150 Stack Player C 320 stack Pre flop - Player A bets 20 (his 1st mistake) and gets two calls $67 in the pot with blinds - 100 in his stack Flop is K 34 with two hearts - Player A bets $60 with his AK and gets called in two spots by a straight and a flush draw - leaving himself with only $40 while the pot is at $247. I would imagine most players in this forum are not making these mistakes but you never know. Personally, I may limp with AK, AA or KK to disguise hand strength or get the opportunity to re-raise and isolate a dominated hand, but if I raise AK here I raise to 12 - creating a 40 dollar pot, then bet around 20 on the flop, creating a 100 dollar pot but leaving 88 in my stack to protect my hand if the turn seems to be a brick - not to mention I prefer to buy in for 300.If I was a nicer person, I would tell some of these guys about Poker VT i guess but it is a small club with only about 30 regular players, I don't want them learning how to play :club:




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