20 replies to this topic

[SapphireTiger]

What are the situations when it is advantageous for you to check in the dark at any point in a hand?

[jayboogie]

It's just to throw off your opponents. I think it's a good play headsup sometimes especially with a strong hand like AK. It's possible to trap with a hand like that by checking in the dark sometimes. You should be able to do the same play with a wide range of hands though so that somebody doesn't pick up on you doing it with specific hands only.

[TheIceman05]

When you have pocket fives, your opponent bet a thrid of your stack, and you decide to call out of position, sure that you'll make your set on the flop. Other than that? Not many in hold'em.It's a pretty common play in 7stud against draws. Ice

[Dirtydutch]

It's not at any lower level.

[jayboogie]

it's a play that should be done in Stud when you put the other player on a draw, because there's no point betting when you can only be raised if the player makes the draw and the other player folds if they miss their draw.

[rwood]

i usually dont do this....but there are times when playing a NL game against a single oponent whereas i know his tendencies somewhat, but have an unclear read on his range of hands preflop, that i will check in the dark with certain hands, usually big unsuited broadway, generally AK os. in a way, at least for me, it takes away his power of position. although i have technically acted first, by checking blind, i force him to act first, and theoretically gives me the button. this takes away some options such as leading out(usually the best time to stab at a pot early in a hand is from first position on the flop). i dunno, just something i picked up to help me sometime narrow down my oponents range of holdings, by seeing what action he takes with the flop...great question, as i would like to see how other players use the check in the dark strategy...also, i agree totally that dw's check blind against ja with AK v. 55 was a horrible play, doing it in that position with that holding and with calling off 1/3 of your stack takes away any effectiveness that checking blind gives you in the situation...great post sapphire...

[GTKID]

Actually its quite ingenious as checking in the dark gives no specific tell of the strength or weakness of your hand, and now you have position on your opponent!

[TheIceman05]

GTKID said:

Actually its quite ingenious as checking in the dark gives no specific tell of the strength or weakness of your hand, and now you have position on your opponent!

Or, you could look at the flop, be good enough not go broadcast the strength (or weakness) of your hand, and THEN check or bet!Ice

[Patricnz]

unless you check in the dark with the best of it and the worst of it 50-50 it would have a tell wouldn't it.

[SapphireTiger]

I honestly don't see the point of letting your opponent know that you're checking in the dark even in stud because that implies that the draw can beat your hand. I mean, you can look at your last card and just check, but then you're not giving your opponent any information. i think when you let your opponent know that you're checking in the dark at that point then you're giving away something that you don't have to.

[GTKID]

If the flop is about to come you cant really give away something by checking in the dark

[Big-Ern777]

TheIceman05 said:

When you have pocket fives, your opponent bet a thrid of your stack, and you decide to call out of position, sure that you'll make your set on the flop.  Other than that?  Not many in hold'em.It's a pretty common play in 7stud against draws.  Ice

Lol..David WilliamsHe thanked Marcel for the play and the knowledge, but ironically he made the play at the wrong time as Arieh could have taken a free turn card with AK. Luckily, Williams hit the set on the flop and Arieh hit top pair with Ks.

[jayboogie]

SapphireTiger said:

I honestly don't see the point of letting your opponent know that you're checking in the dark even in stud because that implies that the draw can beat your hand.  I mean, you can look at your last card and just check, but then you're not giving your opponent any information.  i think when you let your opponent know that you're checking in the dark at that point then you're giving away something that you don't have to.

It's very common in Stud to do this and it's pretty apparent when somebody is on a draw most of the time. When they have up cards that are connecting/suited and unpaired, it's usually a draw. Your not saying you can't beat a draw by checking in the dark, your saying if you made your hand, then your not getting more than 1 bet out of me. By betting, you accomplish nothing, since if your opponent was on a draw, he will fold if he misses and raise if he hit. If you check, you can either induce a bluff from your opponent or save a bet if your opponent made their hand.

[TheIceman05]

SapphireTiger said:

I honestly don't see the point of letting your opponent know that you're checking in the dark even in stud because that implies that the draw can beat your hand.  I mean, you can look at your last card and just check, but then you're not giving your opponent any information.  i think when you let your opponent know that you're checking in the dark at that point then you're giving away something that you don't have to.

There's a reason for this. Suppose you have a hand like two-pair, and your opponent has a flush draw. You act first. What do you do? Option one: Bet, unimproved. This is silly, because he'll raise everytime he wins, and fold everytime he loses. You lose 2 bets when he makes a hand, and gain zero when he doesn't.Option two: Check, unimproved. See above. He may bet behind you, but you can call and only lose a single bet, which is significantly better than losing two bets. And every time he bluffs the river, you win a bet. Yay, dad!So, obviously, if you don't improve to a hand that can beat a draw, checking is the better option. It's the ONLY option. Everybody knows this, including your opponent. It's pretty intuitive.Now, option three: Bet, improved. If your opponent misses his draw, he's paying you zero bets. If he makes his draw, he's going to KNOW you improved, since you would have HAD to have checked here unless you made a house. So he'll pay you off, but he won't raise. One bet. Option four: Check, improved. If he makes his draw, he'll be it, and you can check raise him for a second river bet. If he misses, he would have folded to your bet anyway. In both cases, improvement or not, checking is CLEARLY the better option. So you check in the dark.Ice

[SapphireTiger]

got it, makes sense now in stud.but i still haven't seen a distinct advantage to doing it in hold 'em other than not giving away a tell...any other situations where it might be good?

[Patricnz]

Ice,You have to know the guys on a draw and you can never be 100% sure so if a draw hits he may think the check in the dark means he can steal whats in the ot right their with no real risk because of your check in the dark.

[jayboogie]

If you check in the dark, you still plan to call when you have a decent hand. If you can induce a bluff by checking in the dark, then it becomes even better of a play since your getting a bet that you otherwise wouldn't have.

[TheIceman05]

Patricnz said:

Ice,You have to know the guys on a draw and you can never be 100% sure so if a draw hits he may think the check in the dark means he can steal whats in the ot right their with no real risk because of your check in the dark.

No, you can never be sure, but you can be pretty sure. If he has 3 diamonds up, and has cold-called a few times, you're pretty sure he's diamond-fishing. It's just like putting someone on a draw in another game. Sometimes they're well disguised, but most draws are played pretty similarly. He might try to steal, but that's part of the dark-check appeal. You're not folding your hand no matter what he does. He is going to fold 100% of the time to a bet, though. If he bluffs even once in 100 times, the play is a winning one. Because his steal will never work, and you'll pick up a bet you otherwise wouldn't have. Kinda see how it works?Ice

[Patricnz]

good point.

[TheIceman05]

SapphireTiger said:

got it, makes sense now in stud.but i still haven't seen a distinct advantage to doing it in hold 'em other than not giving away a tell...any other situations where it might be good?

(sigh) I've actually done it a few times with friends. If there is a very aggressive player behind me, I'll check in the dark with a strong draw, and hope my opponent moves at it big if I hit. It's not a very good play, and it rarely pays off. Ice