19 replies to this topic

[RISEorFall]

I love it, but maybe just because I got away with it. Any thoughts?I'm Co with As6s. 3 limp to me, I limp, Button raises, Sb calls, BB folds, 3 calls to me, I call.Flop comes 3-6-Q with 1 spade. Checked to me, I check, button bets, 1 call, 3 fold. I raise. Button calls, Sb calls. Anybody like this checkraise? Me betting into him and him raising tells me nothing, but how he responds to my c/r tells me a lot more. He doesn't have a Q, and now if he has something like 9-9 or 10-10 he might think I have a Q and either give me free cards or fold to more aggression. I have the runner flush draw so this is somewhat of a free card play if my draw improves or if I don't get another 6 or A on the turn. Plus I very likely have the best hand right now.

[Vade]

This should hopefully generate some discussion.I like it, but I don't know if I could make this play. Button could be stealing with anything, and you have a piece of it with your backdoor draw.

[waldo]

id like it more if it was heads up, the extra player tells me at least one person has you beat and will most likly call you down, what limits is this at?

[Kendren]

Good question about the limits. I'm not sure I'd have the stones to make this play, but it could very well be brilliant. At least you've probably bought a free card. Only thing to be wary of is the stop and go here.

[RISEorFall]

.25/.50 limit at Absolute Poker. Table was mostly passive with the exception of a few semi-maniacs. None were in this hand. Hadn't really played many hands against these 2 opponents. I wanted to bet into the PF raiser to make the rest of the field call 2 cold, but I'm pretty sure if any of them had me beat they would've bet, and the check/raise gave me more information on the PF raiser. The raiser had position on me, so I figured a c/r on the small street would set up a scary check on the turn, and I could get a free card if I wanted it. Or I could keep up the aggression and try to take it. I'll post what happened tomorrow, gotta be at work early tomorrow and I want to see some more discussion on this hand. EDIT: I don't think the limit had a whole lot of impact on the hand. WHen I first sat down the table was really tight, then it loosened up a bit. Except for a few nuts everybody was playing pretty good, nobody was really being an idiot.

[wrto4556]

I just lead out and call down.Check/raising sucks because if everyone calls the buttons bet you can't raise. At least by betting into him you give him the chance to raise and protect your hand for you.

[Dirtydutch]

Normaly I wouldn't like it at that level, but you seem to have a pretty good read. if it doesn't work you can improve with 15 cards.I rather like it.

[wrto4556]

Dirtydutch said:

Normaly I wouldn't like it at that level, but you seem to have a pretty good read. if it doesn't work you can improve with 15 cards.I rather like it.

not 15...there is only one spade on the board.

[Dirtydutch]

Improve his P.E, not give him a flush...did i still miss count?

[wrto4556]

Dirtydutch said:

Improve his P.E, not give him a flush...did i still miss count?

No. But, generally, when you speak of BD flushes, you ad 1.5 outs if it will be the nut flush. So, we can say that we have 6.5 outs, i guess...Against an aggressive player, I lead.Against a passive player, I check/raise (if the field folds...check/call if everyone else calls)My reasoning is that a passive player will only raise you with hands that beat you, so you aren't really protecting your hand...but an aggressive player will raise AK UI so that his equity will go up in a big pot.

[Naismith]

RISEorFall said:

I love it, but maybe just because I got away with it. Any thoughts?I'm Co with As6s. 3 limp to me, I limp, Button raises, Sb calls, BB folds, 3 calls to me, I call.Flop comes 3-6-Q with 1 spade. Checked to me, I check, button bets, 1 call, 3 fold. I raise. Button calls, Sb calls.  Anybody like this checkraise? Me betting into him and him raising tells me nothing, but how he responds to my c/r tells me a lot more. He doesn't have a Q, and now if he has something like 9-9 or 10-10 he might think I have a Q and either give me free cards or fold to more aggression. I have the runner flush draw so this is somewhat of a free card play if my draw improves or if I don't get another 6 or A on the turn. Plus I very likely have the best hand right now.

It's funny that you posted this.Last night, I bumped into a 3-6 room. I don't play much limit and I have a hard time remaining patient online.I picked up A5 of hearts. I called from the CO and the button raised. Four callers. I hadn't been at the table for long at this point and didn't know anything about the button.The flop came Q-x-2 with the deuce of hearts. It was checked to the button who bet it. It was folded to me. I decided to raise up to see if I could just take the pot from this guy. He called and the river brought a 3 of hearts giving me a bunch of outs. I fired away into him again, thinking he was on AK or a smaller pair I could get him off. To my surprise, he called. The river came the 4 of spades for the straight. He called my river bet with AK.I don't know if there's a point here...just that the same thing happened to me. :)For the record, there were some horrendous, horrible, horribly horrendous players in the 3-6 room I was in on Hollywood last night. The two biggest stacks at the table were just giving their money away, raising/betting/check-raising only when they A) had nothing or B) had a draw. If they actually had hands, they did that fancy check/smooth-call/check-raise the river number. I'm not talking most of the time...they did it every time. Unfortunately, there's no buddy list on Hollywood that I know of. :)Peace,Jay

[avsfan]

I'm Co with As6s. 3 limp to me, I limp, Button raises, Sb calls, BB folds, 3 calls to me, I call. Often I am going to reraise in this situation preflop. ImhoFlop comes 3-6-Q with 1 spade. Checked to me, I check, button bets, 1 call, 3 fold. I raise. Button calls, Sb calls. Anybody like this checkraise?I don't. ImhoImho

[RISEorFall]

wrto4556 said:

Against an aggressive player, I lead.Against a passive player, I check/raise (if the field folds...check/call if everyone else calls)

The one or two times I had actually seen this guy raise PF he bet out the flop. I didn't see a showdown so I don't know if he had something or was just following up. The rest of the table I had seen bet into a PF raiser if they got any piece of the flop at all, so I wasn't worried about them. If everyone else called I was probably calling/folding here, but all but one folded. I was sure I had that guy beat, if he had a Q he would've bet and if he had a 6 I outkicked him. Check/raising gives me more info on the PF raiser because if I bet and he raises it doesn't mean he has a Q, he's just staying aggressive. If I check/raise and he 3-bets then I'm definately beat, and if he just calls (which he did) I can pretty safely put him on AK or A-big with no Q, or a smaller pair, and now I've represented the Q so he thinks he's beat. Plus I got a free river card and could've got a free showdown. However, I bet and both folded so I don't know exactly what either had, but I'm pretty sure I had both of them beat.

[RISEorFall]

avsfan said:

I'm Co with As6s. 3 limp to me, I limp, Button raises, Sb calls, BB folds, 3 calls to me, I call. Often I am going to reraise in this situation preflop. ImhoFlop comes 3-6-Q with 1 spade. Checked to me, I check, button bets, 1 call, 3 fold. I raise. Button calls, Sb calls. Anybody like this checkraise?I don't. ImhoImho

Why reraise? I'm suited, but I have a bad kicker with my Ace. I don't want to raise to isolate, and if he's got A-big or a pair bigger than my 6 I'm drawing to 3 outs or hoping to get a flush either way. I want to keep people in if my flush hits, not scare them off with so much pre-flop action. And why don't you like the c/r? It's fine if you don't, I'd just like to hear some reasons. From anyone who just said they don't like it, not just you Avs

[avsfan]

RISEorFall said:

avsfan said:

I'm Co with As6s. 3 limp to me, I limp, Button raises, Sb calls, BB folds, 3 calls to me, I call. Often I am going to reraise in this situation preflop. ImhoFlop comes 3-6-Q with 1 spade. Checked to me, I check, button bets, 1 call, 3 fold. I raise. Button calls, Sb calls. Anybody like this checkraise?I don't. ImhoImho

Why reraise? Because the buttons can raise oh so many hands in this situation profitably. I am not going to be as concerned about a rereraise. I also feel if the button rereraises me it will not be as traumatic as lets say a utg gun rereraise to the limpers who have all ready called a "Button Raise". Doesn't just about everyone know tight up front loose in the back. The player raised a multiway pot from "The Button". Milk your hand. Imho.I'm suited, but I have a bad kicker with my Ace. I don't want to raise(reraise) to isolate You would not be reraising to isolate. You would be reraising for value. Imhoand if he's got A-big or a pair bigger than my 6 I'm drawing to 3 outs or hoping to get a flush either way.I am not going to fear my hand being dominated in the above situation.If you reraised above your odds and implied odds will now give you more options on those miracles too. ImhoI want to keep people in if my flush hits, not scare them off with so much pre-flop action. It is a "Button Raise." Your rereraise after their calls isn't even scarry due to the situation. ImhoAnd why don't you like the c/r? It's fine if you don't, I'd just like to hear some reasons. From anyone who just said they don't like it, not just you AvsJust not my style.

[TheStampede]

this is gonna get me killed, what does IMHO mean? Sorry. I dont know your hip lingo 8) .

[Swift_Psycho]

TheStampede said:

this is gonna get me killed, what does IMHO mean? Sorry. I dont know your hip lingo  8) .

in my humble opinion

[avsfan]

I'll admit that I'm not the most proficient limit hold-em player, that's for sure. I won't be embarassed by asking how a limp/reraise for value in this situation is +EV, though. So what's the line here?They way things came down above. I would have raised preflop expecting 3-5 addtional SB. If I had called and been in the exact situation as RiseorFall. I would have rereraised expecting 3-4 addtional SB. Limp/reraise preflop, and then fold if you don't hit 2 spades, two pair, or better? Phil?I am happy with a hand and situation like above. Thats what I am specifically writing about it. Or do you expect a continuation bet to have some fold equity here, when you've just priced everyone in to the turn with your reraise? I am ok with that. I want to play them on the turn.I can't imagine you could even grab a free card here with the reraise, since if the button will raise with "oh so many hands" he'll probably bet out with that many hands as well, especially with a pot that large. Sounds good to me. I wasn't after a free card really. I do like'em though. :-) You're aggressive enough to punish a button raise "for value" with A6s, but not enough to check-raise 2nd pair with a backdoor flush? RiseorFall was very valid in check-raising the flop. I should'n't have said not my style. He made a very good play. He also played the hand correctly. Well Done RISEorFall!!!I can definitly check-raise 2nd pair with a backdoor flush.Would you have bet out instead?So lets say I take the lead preflop. I bet out. If the button caped preflop I check.Come on man, explain this to me some more, 'cause I'm not quite catching it all.I am kind of a Doofus and write bad. I understand.Imho

[RISEorFall]

avsfan said:

Well Done RISEorFall!!!

Thank you :-) Actually, I don't completely disagree with the reraise PF. It builds the pot if I do happen to hit my hand really hard. If I do hit my flush on the flop or turn, I want people to have odds to call me down with TP or something. And, if I was trying to set up a play here (only with a weak table though, decent players would be harder to do this against) a limp-reraise PF and then a check/raise on the flop would be extremely confusing and extremely scary. But reraising with A6s isn't really my style