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Kq In Pushbot Mode


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#21 sennin

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 12:16 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Wednesday, October 22nd, 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

I don't think I wait for premium hands by any stretch. I will shove with 54s or T8o if the situation is right. But I don't like calling shoves, or shoving after someone has raised, unless I have a premium hand.I should have saved the HH of a $5.50 45 I played last night. People were playing really tight and though it was not a turbo, with nine players left (seven get paid) the big stack was in the Orange Zone and most everyone was in the Red. I shoved three times in the span of seven hands, picked up the blinds and antes (plus a limp in one case) without ever getting called, and moved my position from 7th of 9 to 3rd of 9 (I ended up finishing second).Alan
3bet shoving wide is a HUUUGE part of MTT's, you cant always wait for the premiums, if you're down to 13-15 BB's and you get a spot where a guy raises from mp/lp and you have a decent hand(like KQ in this spot) you just cant afford to fold, you gotta stick it in. He'll either fold because he isnt getting the proper odds and doesnt know how wide he has to be calling(most players dont) or he'll call and you'll still win a decent amt of the time.
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#22 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 05:35 AM

View Postsennin, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 3:16 AM, said:

3bet shoving wide is a HUUUGE part of MTT's, you cant always wait for the premiums, if you're down to 13-15 BB's and you get a spot where a guy raises from mp/lp and you have a decent hand(like KQ in this spot) you just cant afford to fold, you gotta stick it in. He'll either fold because he isnt getting the proper odds and doesnt know how wide he has to be calling(most players dont) or he'll call and you'll still win a decent amt of the time.
But with KQ in particular, you are behind against any ace or any pair, and you're dominated by AK and AQ. What are we hoping for villain to call with, KJ or QJ? And I just don't think the fold equity is very high when stacks are this short and villain has already put a decent amount of his stack in, has been observed to play a pretty solid game, and did not raise from a stealing position. I'm not a rock; I'd go for it if we had a pair in hand (even a small one), or a good ace, meaning AJ+ offsuit or A8+ suited.In general, though, I like to be the one opening the pot.Alan

#23 Gallo

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 06:07 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 8:35 AM, said:

But with KQ in particular, you are behind against any ace or any pair, and you're dominated by AK and AQ. What are we hoping for villain to call with, KJ or QJ? And I just don't think the fold equity is very high when stacks are this short and villain has already put a decent amount of his stack in, has been observed to play a pretty solid game, and did not raise from a stealing position. I'm not a rock; I'd go for it if we had a pair in hand (even a small one), or a good ace, meaning AJ+ offsuit or A8+ suited.In general, though, I like to be the one opening the pot.Alan
You're really only truly crushed by AA and KK. There is a possibility you are dominated, but it might not be by much.
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


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#24 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 08:09 AM

View PostGallo, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 9:07 AM, said:

You're really only truly crushed by AA and KK. There is a possibility you are dominated, but it might not be by much.
Sounds like a 9-7 NFL team. Better than average, but not likely to go far in the playoffs.Alan

#25 Gallo

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:24 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 11:09 AM, said:

Sounds like a 9-7 NFL team. Better than average, but not likely to go far in the playoffs.Alan
Sigh, dude. You seriously need to start listening more.People are trying to help and give advice on types of hands like these, but it just seems that you don't want to hear it. People have given reasons as to why they would shove this spot.GL man.
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


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#26 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:50 AM

View PostGallo, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 12:24 PM, said:

Sigh, dude. You seriously need to start listening more.People are trying to help and give advice on types of hands like these, but it just seems that you don't want to hear it. People have given reasons as to why they would shove this spot.GL man.
I listen to other people's opinions, and I offer my own. I'm in the black as a poker player; why then would you assume I am the one who needs the advice rather than the one who might be able to offer some good advice? Or why not chalk it up to a difference in approaches which cannot be (at least, has not been) definitively proven either way?Alan

#27 TrueAce13

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:51 AM

Well to finally put an end to this hand, I instaship only to be snap-called by his AQo which I did not spike. GG meThough with talking with many FCPers and other poker buddies, they all agreed that this is a ship. I think there was enough fold equity to make that play, hence, why I did it
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#28 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:56 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

Well to finally put an end to this hand, I instaship only to be snap-called by his AQo which I did not spike. GG meThough with talking with many FCPers and other poker buddies, almost all of them agreed that this is a ship. I think there was enough fold equity to make that play, hence, why I did it
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#29 Gallo

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:59 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

Well to finally put an end to this hand, I instaship only to be snap-called by his AQo which I did not spike. GG meThough with talking with many FCPers and other poker buddies, they all agreed that this is a ship. I think there was enough fold equity to make that play, hence, why I did it
Yeah, you shoulda folded. j/k
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


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#30 Gallo

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:08 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 12:50 PM, said:

I listen to other people's opinions, and I offer my own. I'm in the black as a poker player; why then would you assume I am the one who needs the advice rather than the one who might be able to offer some good advice? Or why not chalk it up to a difference in approaches which cannot be (at least, has not been) definitively proven either way?Alan
Just because you are in the black doesn't mean that there is nothing more to learn. And I didn't say that you NEED the advice. Poker there is always something new to learn no matter how long you have been playing the game. The advice given on shipping KQ is the optimal play. You are trying to use your FE while you still have it to hopefully take the pot down without a showdown and if you are called you are not that far behind.FWIW, I'm in the red and not ashamed by saying it. However, I have been getting coached the past 6 months or so and have taken advice from other respected MTT players and have learned a ton from them. I'd like to think that my play has gotten a whole lot better because of it, which I think it has and it has shown. I haven't had that big MTT win yet, but I know that it will come as my game gets better as does my understanding of it. But the main reason why my game has gotten better is because I was able to open up and listen to reasonings as to why certain plays are made, why I should call or fold, etc... Sure I question things, but I also try to understand the reasoning behind certain actions and have now taken those things in to help me become a better player.
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


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#31 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:11 AM

As an epilogue, I'd be curious to hear people's opinions coming from villain's side of the hand (he was described as a solid player, after all). What percentage of the hands you'd raise from middle position with these stacks, blinds, and antes would you then fold to a shove from a shortstack with an M in the Red Zone, a LAGgy table image, and a stack one third the size of yours, getting just under 2:1 for the call?My percentage would be right about zero, but then I wouldn't be raising with total trash in that spot, and I will call with a wide variety of hands when getting 2:1, especially if the call closes out the action and puts me HU against an all-in shortstack and only jeopardises 25% of my stack.One more factor would be that I don't want to give any other short stacks ideas about playing back at me when I raise. You fold in a spot like this and you're going to look weak and start getting pushed around left and right. If you pick up some great cards, that could be fine as you'll get paid off; but at this stage of a tourney I would much prefer to be able to pick up pots here and there without resistance.Alan

#32 MovingIn

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 07:03 PM

View PostTrueAce13, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

Well to finally put an end to this hand, I instaship only to be snap-called by his AQo which I did not spike. GG meThough with talking with many FCPers and other poker buddies, they all agreed that this is a ship. I think there was enough fold equity to make that play, hence, why I did it
Being so short, you were in a tough spot where you needed to catch a hand and get it in, and the likelihood that you would get called when you did was higher. You took a hit on a big hand or two and landed in a tough spot. This happens. You made the right play for where you were at: you just ran into some bad luck at a bad time.

#33 SlackerInc

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 10:06 PM

View PostMovingIn, on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

Being so short, you were in a tough spot where you needed to catch a hand and get it in, and the likelihood that you would get called when you did was higher. You took a hit on a big hand or two and landed in a tough spot. This happens. You made the right play for where you were at: you just ran into some bad luck at a bad time.
The likelihood that he would get called when he put the money in would be much lower (and his chances of having the best hand much higher) if he waited to put it in before someone else already raised (or if someone else had raised and he had a less shaky hand than KQo). And near the bubble in particular it was not the right time; had he gone card dead after folding the KQ he still might have cashed and maybe gotten lucky when he found himself having to ship (when you get down to about 4BBs, I think you have to ship it with ATC the first chance you get at an unraised pot, before the BB hits you again--especially if you're past the bubble by that point).Alan

#34 sennin

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:15 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 12:06 AM, said:

The likelihood that he would get called when he put the money in would be much lower (and his chances of having the best hand much higher) if he waited to put it in before someone else already raised (or if someone else had raised and he had a less shaky hand than KQo). And near the bubble in particular it was not the right time; had he gone card dead after folding the KQ he still might have cashed and maybe gotten lucky when he found himself having to ship (when you get down to about 4BBs, I think you have to ship it with ATC the first chance you get at an unraised pot, before the BB hits you again--especially if you're past the bubble by that point).Alan
Since it is the bubble, the guy may be raising even wider, making it even more +evAnd who cares about cashing, MTT is all about pushing all your edges to get a big stack, putting yourself in a position to win. If you're giving up on good chances to get chips just to cash you're not gonna have a lot of success unless you run like god and get a ton of hands, which doesnt always happen. The main thing here is if he doubles up(will happen around 35% of the time if called) he has a GREAT(25~BB) stack. As opposed to folding here, and waiting for a hand, maybe blinding down to 7bbs, then doubling to 14. Great, except that you're still short.
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#35 Gallo

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 08:21 AM

View PostSlackerInc, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 1:06 AM, said:

The likelihood that he would get called when he put the money in would be much lower (and his chances of having the best hand much higher) if he waited to put it in before someone else already raised (or if someone else had raised and he had a less shaky hand than KQo). And near the bubble in particular it was not the right time; had he gone card dead after folding the KQ he still might have cashed and maybe gotten lucky when he found himself having to ship (when you get down to about 4BBs, I think you have to ship it with ATC the first chance you get at an unraised pot, before the BB hits you again--especially if you're past the bubble by that point).Alan
With 4 BBs you have like ZERO FE. You need to be shipping earlier before you get down that low.
QUOTE (no not baxter @ Monday, February 9th, 2009, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ya srsly why not just make a 2 hour dinner break so ppl can go to outback and get a fkn bloomin onion


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#36 Mercury69

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 09:29 AM

View PostTrueAce13, on Wednesday, October 8th, 2008, 1:40 AM, said:

Villain had been playing a solid game, though caught him stealing a few times to pick up the blinds and antes. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10+$1 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB (t30531)UTG (t25401)MP (t15464)CO (t7512)Hero (Button) (t5157)SB (t56584)Preflop: Hero is Button with QPosted Image, KPosted Image1 fold, MP raises to t1200, 1 fold,Hero?Shove/Fold/Flat? Suggestions
Part of the issue here is that the two left to act have massive stacks and probably aren't thinking about pot odds. If you shove, the pot is about 7200, giving the raiser almost 2 to 1 to call you, which he likley will with almost any A. If any of the big stacks flat calls your shove, it's invitational as the odds will be much, much better for even weaker hands to call. If a big stack isolates, you still have to fade an A (likely) or hit against a PP (even 22 will call you down, I think).The mitigating factor is: How long do you want to be on life support? Toss a coin: Heads you shove, tails you fold...
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#37 SGFULTON83

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 09:51 AM

Shove, unless you want to have to wait longer for better and then only double up to what you have now.

#38 SlackerInc

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

View Postsennin, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 4:15 AM, said:

Since it is the bubble, the guy may be raising even wider, making it even more +ev
That's speculative (there's just as good a chance he could be playing tighter near the bubble since he could lose his whole stack on one second-best hand); but even if true, the problem is that KQo is not really all that far ahead even "bluffing" type hands! I think that's an issue here that isn't being addressed directly: the quality of KQo vs. a lot of other marginal hands like suited aces, small pairs, etc. Even the super-aggro Gus Hansen says in his excellent book Every Hand Revealed that he is "not a big fan of KQ". And Dan Harrington cautions strongly about its weakness in HoH as well. I would even prefer T9s as a hand to shove in this spot!

View Postsennin, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 4:15 AM, said:

And who cares about cashing, MTT is all about pushing all your edges to get a big stack, putting yourself in a position to win.
MTT is not ALL about that. It is not ALL about cashing either. It is a mix of both. Think about it: would the optimal strategy for a MTT be identical whether it pays 30 places or is winner take all? That is logically, mathematically absurd. The only question is how much you change your strategy to take into account the payout structure. Certainly many people change it too much toward coasting into a cash on fumes, but there are others (like you) who go (or at least preach going) too far the other way.When I am very close to an MTT bubble, I play things a little more carefully especially when people who have me outchipped have raised. This is straight out of HoH as well, even outside bubble situations: don't tangle with a player who can easily eliminate you unless you have a strong hand, and when they've raised first you have to apply the Gap Concept. The Gap Concept applies even when shortstacked, and especially against big stacks on the bubble.

View Postsennin, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 4:15 AM, said:

If you're giving up on good chances to get chips
This is not a good chance to get chips. You have no FE to speak of, so you're getting eliminated from the tournament a majority of the time, and on the bubble the bit over doubling up you get the rest of the time doesn't make up for it given the difference between tournament equity and cash equity (remember, everyone but the winner loses all their chips eventually, but the winner doesn't get anywhere near as much of a payout as those chips represent in starting value).If the tournament were winner take all it might be a marginally profitable play. Even then, I suspect it would be more profitable to wait until you are the one who has the chance to open the pot (when you are UTG if not sooner) and shove ATC.But the point of being a little more careful around the bubble is not to slide into the lowest payout and then go quietly into that good night. Given that there is not much of a "ladder" in the early cashing spots, it's more like you get into that spot so everything afterward is a freeroll, and then you take the tight image you've built and start making hay by getting aggro with a variety of hands. That's the point at which you can decide to either get yourself a good stack to make a run, or go out in one of the lower cashing places.Ironically, as I was composing this I went out 6th in two consecutive 27-man SNGs. I could have slid into cashing, but I had good hands and wasn't going to lay them down. But in neither of them did I have KQo facing a MP raise; I would have folded had that been the case.Alan

#39 sennin

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 07:50 PM

.good luck
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#40 SlackerInc

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 07:56 PM

View PostGallo, on Friday, October 24th, 2008, 11:21 AM, said:

With 4 BBs you have like ZERO FE. You need to be shipping earlier before you get down that low.
That's quite a general statement. First of all, when I'm down to 4BBs it's almost always one of two situations:(1) I just lost a big hand (usually an all-in against someone I had outchipped by 4BBs);or (2) 4BBs is pretty close to the average for the tournament (remember, the "weak force" Q, representing how your stack ranks against others, needs to be considered--not just M or BBs).Secondly, if your stack is like even 40-50% of the size of most of the others at the table, 4BBs has plenty of FE. Let's say the big blind has about t5000, and the blinds are t300-600. You don't think he's going to fold a fair number of hands if you shove your t2400 stack?Alan




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