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The Bush Third Term Party Line


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 01:41 PM

The Obama campaign is continuously trying to link the McCain camp to Bush and the last 8 years and is a central focus of their message. With Obama ahead in the polls it's unlikely that they will change that central message. The McCain camp has been changing their message in an attempt to distance themselves from the Bush years by changing their party line to "Change is Coming" while at the same time calling themselves the Maverick ticket that will get things done in Washington.1. Do you feel that could alienate Bush supporters?2. Do you think the Obama camps efforts to pin McCain to Bush has been effective in the eyes of the voters?3. If you were in the Obama camp, would your political strategy be similar in trying to make McCain and Bush seem linked at the hip?4. If you were working in the McCain camp, how would you try and deflect those claims while at the same time being respectful to those voters who approve of the current administration.My answers:1. I think the McCain camp is doing a good job of avoiding direct attacks on Bush and instead focusing their energy on changing congress. I don't think McCain has done much at all to alienate the Bush base. 2. I do think it is working. Especially to those voters that don't pay close attention, and realize that, no, Mcain and Bush are very different on a lot of issues, I think many are being convinced that Bush is McCain and McCain is Bush.3. Absolutely, and I think you'd be lying if you said you wouldn't take that approach, it's really a no-brainer especially with the country's economic woes as well as the extremely low approval rating of the current president. I think anytime a party president has a low approval rating this is a must-do tactic. In fact, I would try to do more of it.4. This is where I think Palin did a solid job. Whenever Biden brought up the last eight years she essentially mocked him effectively by saying, "Come on Joe, there you go again bringing up the past. John McCain and I are Mavericks and are looking to the future where we are going to shake up Washington and get things done. McCain has a long history of making things happen and that's what we are going to do." I thought that line of counter attack was brilliant. It's an obvious tactic being used by Obama/Biden to try and link Bush to McCain, and I think it's a smart move to make it obvious to voters that they are just putting a political spin on a situation that isn't entirely accurate. In fact, I'm already pretty sick of the line, "We can't have four more years of the same eight years we just had." I would sharpen that message and get way more specific. It's a weak line when overused and the Obama camp does have a lot of artillery they could use to glue the two together that's more powerful and effective. The war and the economy being the two key issues. I do enjoy politics. I am very clear on the fact that I am Obama supporter, but I can definitely appreciate good politics and find it entertaining. It's a game, and I like games. At this point I feel like it's getting into the third period and Obama is up two goals. If I were in the McCain camp I'd try to get even more aggressive. I'd also, seriously, change the subject. Attacking Obama HAS worked. Rev Wright- big issue. Tony Rezko, bring it up again. It would be totally transparent to do that, but I think McCain needs a game changer because the Obama camp is happy to play a careful game at this point and protect the lead.
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#2 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 02:05 PM

[quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']The Obama campaign is continuously trying to link the McCain camp to Bush and the last 8 years and is a central focus of their message. With Obama ahead in the polls it's unlikely that they will change that central message. The McCain camp has been changing their message in an attempt to distance themselves from the Bush years by changing their party line to "Change is Coming" while at the same time calling themselves the Maverick ticket that will get things done in Washington.1. Do you feel that could alienate Bush supporters?2. Do you think the Obama camps efforts to pin McCain to Bush has been effective in the eyes of the voters?3. If you were in the Obama camp, would your political strategy be similar in trying to make McCain and Bush seem linked at the hip?4. If you were working in the McCain camp, how would you try and deflect those claims while at the same time being respectful to those voters who approve of the current administration.My answers:[quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']1. I think the McCain camp is doing a good job of avoiding direct attacks on Bush and instead focusing their energy on changing congress. I don't think McCain has done much at all to alienate the Bush base.[/quote] No, I don't think there are a ton of republicans passionate about Bush anyway, so no McCain is not losing any Bush supporters.[quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']2. I do think it is working. Especially to those voters that don't pay close attention, and realize that, no, Mccain and Bush are very different on a lot of issues, I think many are being convinced that Bush is McCain and McCain is Bush.[/quote]For anyone that really pays attention, then they will realize that, Yes, John McCain is indeed a Maverick. That doesn't mean that he never holds the party line, or that he always disagrees with Bush. But yes, the Bush/McCain connection is working, especially on Iraq which is still unpopular. [quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']3. Absolutely, and I think you'd be lying if you said you wouldn't take that approach, it's really a no-brainer especially with the country's economic woes as well as the extremely low approval rating of the current president. I think anytime a party president has a low approval rating this is a must-do tactic. In fact, I would try to do more of it.[/quote]I agree with this except that McCain should be killing Obama on the economy,( I think this will be a major theme of McCain's in the next debate).[quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']4. This is where I think Palin did a solid job. Whenever Biden brought up the last eight years she essentially mocked him effectively by saying, "Come on Joe, there you go again bringing up the past. John McCain and I are Mavericks and are looking to the future where we are going to shake up Washington and get things done. McCain has a long history of making things happen and that's what we are going to do." I thought that line of counter attack was brilliant. It's an obvious tactic being used by Obama/Biden to try and link Bush to McCain, and I think it's a smart move to make it obvious to voters that they are just putting a political spin on a situation that isn't entirely accurate. In fact, I'm already pretty sick of the line, "We can't have four more years of the same eight years we just had." I would sharpen that message and get way more specific. It's a weak line when overused and the Obama camp does have a lot of artillery they could use to glue the two together that's more powerful and effective. The war and the economy being the two key issues.[/quote]A lot of people from both sides thought that during the debate, The Biden Line about John McCain is no maverick was effective. Effective with who? Maybe with those that no nothing about John McCain. I think the dems should be more specific and drive home that McCain supports 'Bush's War" . The Dems better watch out, because the similarities that McCain and Bush have on the economy is that they both tried to regulate Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, this would have already been blown out of the water if the MSM wasn't completely campaigning for Obama. [quote name='DanielNegreanu' post='2824604' date='Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM']I do enjoy politics. I am very clear on the fact that I am Obama supporter, but I can definitely appreciate good politics and find it entertaining. It's a game, and I like games. At this point I feel like it's getting into the third period and Obama is up two goals. If I were in the McCain camp I'd try to get even more aggressive. I'd also, seriously, change the subject. Attacking Obama HAS worked. Rev Wright- big issue. Tony Rezko, bring it up again. It would be totally transparent to do that, but I think McCain needs a game changer because the Obama camp is happy to play a careful game at this point and protect the lead.[/quote]If I were McCain I would be hammering home on the economy and be telling the American people that the media is not leveling with them. Whining about the media backfires at times(just ask Hillary). I don't think McCain is going to bring up Wright and Rezco directly, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a lot of that in political ads in swing states from here on out.
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#3 Canadianpoker83

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 02:33 PM

I'm Canadian, but for some reason i find American politics way more interesting
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#4 85suited

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 03:09 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM, said:

I do enjoy politics. I am very clear on the fact that I am Obama supporter, but I can definitely appreciate good politics and find it entertaining. It's a game, and I like games. At this point I feel like it's getting into the third period and Obama is up two goals. If I were in the McCain camp I'd try to get even more aggressive. I'd also, seriously, change the subject. Attacking Obama HAS worked. Rev Wright- big issue. Tony Rezko, bring it up again. It would be totally transparent to do that, but I think McCain needs a game changer because the Obama camp is happy to play a careful game at this point and protect the lead.
McCain seriously needs to go after the William Ayers angle, Throw back in Jeremiah Wright & Tony Retzko and all of the other shady figures..On the economy he needs to explain in no uncertain terms how the community reinvestment act started this bubble... How the democrats wouldnt allow more over sight of Fannie & Freddie and how George Bush should have stepped in (this gives him some credibility instead of just blaming dems)He needs to explain how more taxes hurt the economy, how the poor barely pay tax already... and really go after socialism in the US, SAY SOCIALISM OVER AND OVER... scare some peopleLastly, Daniel Check your FCP email so we can finish up the terms of the wager (small potatoes for you I know LOL)Well written article above..

#5 Zealous Donkey

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 03:39 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 4:41 PM, said:

If I were in the McCain camp I'd try to get even more aggressive. I'd also, seriously, change the subject. Attacking Obama HAS worked. Rev Wright- big issue. Tony Rezko, bring it up again. It would be totally transparent to do that, but I think McCain needs a game changer because the Obama camp is happy to play a careful game at this point and protect the lead.
Apparently, the McCain campaign is going to take your advice.http://newsbusters.o...whoop-ass-obamahttp://www.breitbart...;show_article=1
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#6 85suited

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 03:41 PM

Maybe Daniel is really the puppet master here!

#7 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:08 PM

View PostCanadianpoker83, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 3:33 PM, said:

I'm Canadian, but for some reason i find American politics way more interesting
Im American but for some reason I find Canadian posters' signatures way more interesting.
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#8 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:10 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 2:41 PM, said:

The Obama campaign is continuously trying to link the McCain camp to Bush and the last 8 years and is a central focus of their message. With Obama ahead in the polls it's unlikely that they will change that central message. The McCain camp has been changing their message in an attempt to distance themselves from the Bush years by changing their party line to "Change is Coming" while at the same time calling themselves the Maverick ticket that will get things done in Washington.1. Do you feel that could alienate Bush supporters?2. Do you think the Obama camps efforts to pin McCain to Bush has been effective in the eyes of the voters?3. If you were in the Obama camp, would your political strategy be similar in trying to make McCain and Bush seem linked at the hip?4. If you were working in the McCain camp, how would you try and deflect those claims while at the same time being respectful to those voters who approve of the current administration.My answers:1. I think the McCain camp is doing a good job of avoiding direct attacks on Bush and instead focusing their energy on changing congress. I don't think McCain has done much at all to alienate the Bush base. 2. I do think it is working. Especially to those voters that don't pay close attention, and realize that, no, Mcain and Bush are very different on a lot of issues, I think many are being convinced that Bush is McCain and McCain is Bush.3. Absolutely, and I think you'd be lying if you said you wouldn't take that approach, it's really a no-brainer especially with the country's economic woes as well as the extremely low approval rating of the current president. I think anytime a party president has a low approval rating this is a must-do tactic. In fact, I would try to do more of it.4. This is where I think Palin did a solid job. Whenever Biden brought up the last eight years she essentially mocked him effectively by saying, "Come on Joe, there you go again bringing up the past. John McCain and I are Mavericks and are looking to the future where we are going to shake up Washington and get things done. McCain has a long history of making things happen and that's what we are going to do."I thought that line of counter attack was brilliant. It's an obvious tactic being used by Obama/Biden to try and link Bush to McCain, and I think it's a smart move to make it obvious to voters that they are just putting a political spin on a situation that isn't entirely accurate. In fact, I'm already pretty sick of the line, "We can't have four more years of the same eight years we just had." I would sharpen that message and get way more specific. It's a weak line when overused and the Obama camp does have a lot of artillery they could use to glue the two together that's more powerful and effective. The war and the economy being the two key issues.I do enjoy politics. I am very clear on the fact that I am Obama supporter, but I can definitely appreciate good politics and find it entertaining. It's a game, and I like games. At this point I feel like it's getting into the third period and Obama is up two goals. If I were in the McCain camp I'd try to get even more aggressive. I'd also, seriously, change the subject. Attacking Obama HAS worked. Rev Wright- big issue. Tony Rezko, bring it up again. It would be totally transparent to do that, but I think McCain needs a game changer because the Obama camp is happy to play a careful game at this point and protect the lead.
We actually agree point for point. Whats that, about 5 for 300?
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#9 Potomophobia

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:12 PM

A somewhat serious reply, even though I am not going to change anyone's mind on their political views.1) It might, but there are so few of them it doesn't matter. Only the most die-hard republicans can still believe he hasn't been the biggest disaster in our lifetimes.2) I dunno. I just wish he would nail McCain for his past and at the same time say something of substance about any of the problems facing us all today.3) No. I would call McCain on the lies and distortions he has been propagating. I would directly address the issues and give specifics about what steps I would take to solve the problems.4) If I were working in the McCain camp......... I prefer to not answer that one.I am not the biggest of Obama fans. His performance in the debate was lame. And I believe that anyone who wants to be a politician should be immediately banned from becoming one. But he is the lesser of two evils. He is not as corrupt as the rest.
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#10 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:14 PM

View PostPotomophobia, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 5:12 PM, said:

. He is not as corrupt as the rest.
If you can say that with a straight face you dont know Chicago politics. It is impossible to rise in that city without being corrupt and has been for decades.
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#11 85suited

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:15 PM

I am not sure how you work this in if your JSM...maybe a 528 group...I dont believe that the majority of americans know he has written these things and if they did....they might choose not to vote for himFrom Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.' From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.' From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.' From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.' From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

#12 clingfree

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:22 PM

View PostCanadianpoker83, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 6:33 PM, said:

I'm Canadian, but for some reason i find American politics way more interesting

View Postcopernicus, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 8:08 PM, said:

Im American but for some reason I find Canadian posters' signatures way more interesting.
I'm American, but I find Canadian women much more alluring. And Cop stole my thunder, but I still had to post this.

#13 Potomophobia

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:24 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 8:14 PM, said:

If you can say that with a straight face you dont know Chicago politics. It is impossible to rise in that city without being corrupt and has been for decades.
Your response is precisely why I do not get more articulate online regarding politics.First, boy, I was born and raised in Chicago. I grew up in the BOSS Daley age. My Father dealt with the city on a daily basis for business. He managed to do it and keep his integrity. He would tell me how he managed to get around the constant requests for bribes.And I never said Obama wasn't corrupt. I just said he wasn't as corrupt as the others. But that's what your kind does. Take the facts and truth and twist them to fit your sick little fantasy.
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#14 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 04:26 PM

View PostPotomophobia, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 5:24 PM, said:

Your response is precisely why I do not get more articulate online regarding politics.First, boy, I was born and raised in Chicago. I grew up in the BOSS Daley age. My Father dealt with the city on a daily basis for business. He managed to do it and keep his integrity. He would tell me how he managed to get around the constant requests for bribes.And I never said Obama wasn't corrupt. I just said he wasn't as corrupt as the others. But that's what your kind does. Take the facts and truth and twist them to fit your sick little fantasy.
And I still say youre dreaming. .... or you dont mind since your boy has been on the right side of the corruption. I mean the left side. I mean....you know what I mean.
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#15 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 05:07 PM

View Post85suited, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 5:15 PM, said:

I am not sure how you work this in if your JSM...maybe a 528 group...I dont believe that the majority of americans know he has written these things and if they did....they might choose not to vote for himFrom Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.' From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.' From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.' From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.' From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
Now here is a case where I would strongly defend Obama having read the book and understanding the context of what is being taken out of context. I thought the book was incredibly honest and was a look inside the mind of a man who struggled to know who he really was. It's brilliant. I do want to address your quotes. Not to start an angry debate with you, but to give you the context to the quotes that may help you see where the quotes came from:-------------------------------------------------------From Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.' This is deep. He talks about a story about a young black girl who is ridiculed in school and an experience he had where he befriended her and then betrayed her trust when other kids starting making fun of the two. He turned her away and felt an immense amount of guilt for it. He didn't want to be an outcast, but by spending time with the black outcast that was what he was becoming. He went through a phase where he wanted to be accepted by blacks. He went back and forth, wanted acceptance from whites, then from blacks, and back again because he never truly felt like he belonged in either group. From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.' This is from his teenage years when he started "not caring" about life. He started hanging around with a group of black friends that always complained about the "white man" and how they are keeping the brothers down. Eventually, as he writes in his book, he saw the faults in being the typical "angry black man" and realized that most of it was bologna. From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.' Ah, this was from his days of community organizing when he was hired by a white, Jewish man to help organize a predominantly black neighborhood. The uneasiness he felt about the man had more to do with his attitude towards the community, but also a curiosity as to how a community of blacks in Chicago could be brought together by a white man who doesn't live where they live. How did he connect with those in the community? From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.' Again, from his days working as a community organizer in Chicago. He wasn't even talking about himself here (not 100 percent sure), he was talking about some of the church leaders in Chicago and how they didn't appreciate newcomers and weren't about to help Obama organize meetings in their churches because, you guessed it, he was working for the white Jewish guy. It was a major roadblock in Obama being able to get anything done because the church leaders are the ones that could bring people together, and they saw Obama as a pawn. They saw him as being used by the white Jewish man to win over their congregations and some of them wouldn't stand for it. Obama's first meeting was a total disaster and failure. He set up about 300 chairs... and five people showed up. From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.' His father was a very intelligent man and Obama was told stories of him since he was a little boy. About how he was a big wig in the Kenyan government, about how when his father spoke, people listened. The sentence is referring to Obama not really having any role models that spoke to him. He grew up in a white family and didn't identify with blacks in the hood as he didn't share their struggles. There were few people he could look up to that resembled the path of his life so he sought to read books. It's also important to note that these struggles he had mainly occurred when he was a teenage desperately trying to find out who he was and what he was supposed to be. With a father than was only a collection of stories to him, he didn't have a lot of people to turn to with his problems. His grandparents were great people, but they were white and couldn't possibly understand the struggles he had with his identity.And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.' This one is just silly, IMO. If Muslims in the U.S. are faced with the proposition of being profiled based on their religious beliefs, he should absolutely stand with them and against such injustices. It doesn't infer that he will fight with Muslims against Christians in some spiritual and the inference that it does it, well, as I said, silly. I read the book, pretty recently I might add, and all of the answers I provided are based on what I read. If you read the book you will find a large number of sections where he shows disdain for blacks, calling some of his black friends hypocrites, and stereotypical brothers consumed by hate. It's an EXTREMELY honest book, with some cursing, talk of his alcohol and drug abuse, and a look into his own insecurities as a teenager. It may confirm for you further that you don't want him to be the president, or, it could, at least, make you feel more comfortable with the idea that these quotes are taken out of context and he really isn't a Muslim at all.
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#16 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 05:49 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 6:07 PM, said:

Now here is a case where I would strongly defend Obama having read the book and understanding the context of what is being taken out of context. I thought the book was incredibly honest and was a look inside the mind of a man who struggled to know who he really was. It's brilliant. I do want to address your quotes. Not to start an angry debate with you, but to give you the context to the quotes that may help you see where the quotes came from:-------------------------------------------------------From Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'This is deep. He talks about a story about a young black girl who is ridiculed in school and an experience he had where he befriended her and then betrayed her trust when other kids starting making fun of the two. He turned her away and felt an immense amount of guilt for it. He didn't want to be an outcast, but by spending time with the black outcast that was what he was becoming. He went through a phase where he wanted to be accepted by blacks. He went back and forth, wanted acceptance from whites, then from blacks, and back again because he never truly felt like he belonged in either group.From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'This is from his teenage years when he started "not caring" about life. He started hanging around with a group of black friends that always complained about the "white man" and how they are keeping the brothers down. Eventually, as he writes in his book, he saw the faults in being the typical "angry black man" and realized that most of it was bologna. From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'Ah, this was from his days of community organizing when he was hired by a white, Jewish man to help organize a predominantly black neighborhood. The uneasiness he felt about the man had more to do with his attitude towards the community, but also a curiosity as to how a community of blacks in Chicago could be brought together by a white man who doesn't live where they live. How did he connect with those in the community?From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'Again, from his days working as a community organizer in Chicago. He wasn't even talking about himself here (not 100 percent sure), he was talking about some of the church leaders in Chicago and how they didn't appreciate newcomers and weren't about to help Obama organize meetings in their churches because, you guessed it, he was working for the white Jewish guy. It was a major roadblock in Obama being able to get anything done because the church leaders are the ones that could bring people together, and they saw Obama as a pawn. They saw him as being used by the white Jewish man to win over their congregations and some of them wouldn't stand for it. Obama's first meeting was a total disaster and failure. He set up about 300 chairs... and five people showed up.From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'His father was a very intelligent man and Obama was told stories of him since he was a little boy. About how he was a big wig in the Kenyan government, about how when his father spoke, people listened. The sentence is referring to Obama not really having any role models that spoke to him. He grew up in a white family and didn't identify with blacks in the hood as he didn't share their struggles. There were few people he could look up to that resembled the path of his life so he sought to read books. It's also important to note that these struggles he had mainly occurred when he was a teenage desperately trying to find out who he was and what he was supposed to be. With a father than was only a collection of stories to him, he didn't have a lot of people to turn to with his problems. His grandparents were great people, but they were white and couldn't possibly understand the struggles he had with his identity.And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'This one is just silly, IMO. If Muslims in the U.S. are faced with the proposition of being profiled based on their religious beliefs, he should absolutely stand with them and against such injustices. It doesn't infer that he will fight with Muslims against Christians in some spiritual and the inference that it does it, well, as I said, silly.I read the book, pretty recently I might add, and all of the answers I provided are based on what I read. If you read the book you will find a large number of sections where he shows disdain for blacks, calling some of his black friends hypocrites, and stereotypical brothers consumed by hate.It's an EXTREMELY honest book, with some cursing, talk of his alcohol and drug abuse, and a look into his own insecurities as a teenager. It may confirm for you further that you don't want him to be the president, or, it could, at least, make you feel more comfortable with the idea that these quotes are taken out of context and he really isn't a Muslim at all.
The only one I would comment on is "Ah, this was from his days of community organizing when he was hired by a white, Jewish man to help organize a predominantly black neighborhood. The uneasiness he felt about the man had more to do with his attitude towards the community, but also a curiosity as to how a community of blacks in Chicago could be brought together by a white man who doesn't live where they live. How did he connect with those in the community?"He seems to not have that problem with the white Ayers.I read both books. The quotes above when in context are certainly not damning. However I think even you will agree that his upbringing and associations are based on a foundation of extreme left philosophies and undercurrents of reverse racism.
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#17 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:00 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 6:49 PM, said:

The only one I would comment on is "Ah, this was from his days of community organizing when he was hired by a white, Jewish man to help organize a predominantly black neighborhood. The uneasiness he felt about the man had more to do with his attitude towards the community, but also a curiosity as to how a community of blacks in Chicago could be brought together by a white man who doesn't live where they live. How did he connect with those in the community?"He seems to not have that problem with the white Ayers.I read both books. The quotes above when in context are certainly not damning. However I think even you will agree that his upbringing and associations are based on a foundation of extreme left philosophies and undercurrents of reverse racism.
I would agree that his upbringing is based on a foundation that leans left for sure, but wouldn't say that his positions and views have been negatively affected by the racist views of either blacks or whites hes encountered through his life. In fact, I think the fact that he has been exposed to racism from both directions gives him a sense of understanding in terms of racism that few of us could even understand. He's felt racism from both whites as well as blacks. He's felt pressure to be "more black" with his black friends, and felt the need to act "more white" when dealing with authoritative figures. I'm glad you read the book, though, it allows you to see that these quotes are being used to scare people about Obama and that they are being taken out of context. I would encourage 85suited, if you have the time, to read the book as well and see what you think. It might scare you more! It actually did for me when talking about his Indonesian father, it was an awkward time in the book and Obama's relationship with him was pretty strange also, IMO. Some of the beliefs held by his Indonesian father are a bit "out there" for me.
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#18 Potomophobia

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:17 PM

View Post85suited, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 8:15 PM, said:

I am not sure how you work this in if your JSM...maybe a 528 group...I dont believe that the majority of americans know he has written these things and if they did....they might choose not to vote for himFrom Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.' From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.' From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.' From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.' From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
I have not read the book. But I will start by asking you a some questions:How old are you?Do you have any idea of what a racist country this was just several decades ago? Can you possibly understand what it is like to grow up in a country where the color of your skin makes you sub-human?To finish:Why does the Muslim religion scare you? Does being a Muslim automatically damn someone? What makes you any different from any other religious extremist?
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#19 copernicus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:32 PM

View PostPotomophobia, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 7:17 PM, said:

What makes you any different from any other religious extremist?
IEDs?
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#20 Potomophobia

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 07:38 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Saturday, October 4th, 2008, 10:32 PM, said:

IEDs?
We have the biggest IEDs in the world. They are called Nuclear (NOT NUCULAR) weapons. Ever been outside the US for more than a tourist jaunt? Ever seen life outside America? Ever wonder what it's like to have to deal with the most powerful country in the world ruled by a man who cannot pronounce the name of the weapons he controls? Ever wondered what it is like to watch said country invade another country based on lies and call it a Crusade? Ever been in the military? Ever fought in a war? Ever watched men die?Didn't think so.
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