easy river fold? [ps 2/4]

[Absolute 0]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is BB with [Kh], [Kd]. 5 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.Flop: (7 SB) [Jc], [4c], [5c] (3 players)SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds.Turn: (4.50 BB) [Qs] (2 players)Hero bets, Button calls.River: (6.50 BB) [Kc] (2 players)Hero bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 10.50 BB(tells himself to listen to the b/f line going off in his head)

[Rocketwadster 0]

I would call it only to see what he was chasing with all the way to the river... :wink:

[cdddc75 0]

c/c is better than b/f in this case. Few hands that you beat are going to call, but many hands that beat you will raise. I still make the crying call after checking at 7.5 to 1.

[Absolute 0]

c/c is better than b/f in this case. Few hands that you beat are going to call, but many hands that beat you will raise. I still make the crying call at 7.5 to 1.

b/f is the best line here.

[cdddc75 0]

c/c is better than b/f in this case. Few hands that you beat are going to call, but many hands that beat you will raise. I still make the crying call at 7.5 to 1.

b/f is the best line here.

Pardon my donkishness, but why is b/f better here? Betting into this board seems like spewing to me.What am I missing?

[wrto4556 0]

You have to call this river bet. KJ jut got there...QJ looking for a BD straight thinks he's good...some slowplayed underset wakes up on the river...checking would be absurd.Betting and folding top set would be absurd.

[cdddc75 0]

You have to call this river bet. KJ jut got there...QJ looking for a BD straight thinks he's good...some slowplayed underset wakes up on the river...checking would be absurd.Betting and folding top set would be absurd.

Are the four clubs on board completely insignificant?

[Absolute 0]

c/c is better than b/f in this case. Few hands that you beat are going to call, but many hands that beat you will raise. I still make the crying call at 7.5 to 1.

b/f is the best line here.

Pardon my donkishness, but why is b/f better here? Betting into this board seems like spewing to me.What am I missing?

When you are heads up, out of position, and a fourth suit comes, you should ALWAYS bet if you think you have the best hand regardless of suit. It is often referred to as "Clarkmeister's Theorem" because of a 2+2 poster who studied and found that is best for expected value.I posted a hand about this very recently.

[Absolute 0]

You have to call this river bet. KJ jut got there...QJ looking for a BD straight thinks he's good...some slowplayed underset wakes up on the river...checking would be absurd.Betting and folding top set would be absurd.

Are the four clubs on board completely insignificant?

Hence the "bet/fold? line. The amount of times a worse non flush hand calls you will blow your mind.It's all -EV.But the b/f line is LESS EV than the c/c line.It makes sense if you think about it.Good stuff, no?

[badgerbucco 0]

If you check, he'll be any hand that he already had as well as anything with the case K. He'll also bet the flush. You win anything other than a flush. However, he will raise with the flush and occasionally a worse 2-pair or trips. He will fold to your bet with any hand that wouldn't beat you and call with the same stuff that he would probably bet on the end. That's a bit of a jumble, but I think that you come out ahead with the c/c. I haven't done the math, but it seems like something straight out of Theory of Poker.

[wrto4556 0]

yeah.Bet/folding this river is the best line.Christ...I didn't even see it. I hate the BTP format.

[Absolute 0]

If you check, he'll be any hand that he already had as well as anything with the case K. He'll also bet the flush. You win anything other than a flush. However, he will raise with the flush and occasionally a worse 2-pair or trips. He will fold to your bet with any hand that wouldn't beat you and call with the same stuff that he would probably bet on the end. That's a bit of a jumble, but I think that you come out ahead with the c/c. I haven't done the math, but it seems like something straight out of Theory of Poker.

im sorry,, but you are dead wrongsee my post above on why

[cdddc75 0]

I get it now, thanks to some 2+2 browsing:

In brief: You spend the same when you're behind (since you're prepared to fold to a raise), but don't miss bets when you're ahead. Villain also might fold a hand that beats you -- I remember a guy dumping a set to my pair of aces, telling me that he just couldn't call, and asking me which flush card I had. He might have been full of it, but he seemed proud of his big laydown.

Long live Clarkmeister.

[Absolute 0]

I get it now, thanks to some 2+2 browsing:

In brief: You spend the same when you're behind (since you're prepared to fold to a raise), but don't miss bets when you're ahead. Villain also might fold a hand that beats you -- I remember a guy dumping a set to my pair of aces, telling me that he just couldn't call, and asking me which flush card I had. He might have been full of it, but he seemed proud of his big laydown.

Long live Clarkmeister.

add yourself to the short list of people here who actually get it.good call

[the_stein 0]

Personally, I'd check/call the river.I'd check for a couple reasons:#1 if he has nothing or something weak, he will fold, but if he has nothing, or something weak and he sees you check, he might try to bluff#2 if he does have a flush, you don't want to pay 2 bets for itI absolutely hate bet/folding on the river, unless I'm taking a stab, I will almost never bet/fold.

[Absolute 0]

Personally, I'd check/call the river.I'd check for a couple reasons:#1 if he has nothing or something weak, he will fold, but if he has nothing, or something weak and he sees you check, he might try to bluff#2 if he does have a flush, you don't want to pay 2 bets for itI absolutely hate bet/folding on the river, unless I'm taking a stab, I will almost never bet/fold.

what does c/c accomplish that b/f doesnt?clarkmeister's theorem broboth options are -EVb/f is less -EV

[badgerbucco 0]

I missed the 4-flush on the board.

[the_stein 0]

Personally, I'd check/call the river.I'd check for a couple reasons:#1 if he has nothing or something weak, he will fold, but if he has nothing, or something weak and he sees you check, he might try to bluff#2 if he does have a flush, you don't want to pay 2 bets for itI absolutely hate bet/folding on the river, unless I'm taking a stab, I will almost never bet/fold.

what does c/c accomplish that b/f doesnt?clarkmeister's theorem broboth options are -EVb/f is less -EV

well check/call you are investing 1 bet, bet/fold you are investing 1 bet, except when you bet'/fold you don't get to see a showdown and you have 0% chance of winning. Check/call you might even win the hand who knows.Also, if you check it might tempt him to bluff at the pot

[wrto4556 0]

Stein,Nooone is raising the river without the flush. That card is just as scary to them as it is to you. So, you can safely fold to a raise. betting is good because many hands that don't have a flush will call you but check behind.If you check and call players will check behind with hands that you have beat and bet hands that beat you. Know what I mean?If you bet, you will get called by worse hands and raised by better ones.So, clark's theorem is sort of a value bet.both lines are -EV...but clark's is less -EV than checking and calling because you get worse hands to call your bet instead of checking behind.

[TheIceman05 0]

I think The_Stein makes a good point. I still think b/f is a better option, but not nearly as MUCH better as indicated previously. With a board like this, there are plenty of hands that would fold your river bet, but realize they can't win a showdown. The pot's big enough so that a rags-bluf-desperation bet is pretty common practice. Granted, you're losing bets frequently when somebody gets there by making a second-best hand on the river, but you're picking up bets by inducing a bluff. B/F is the best option, but C/C isn't terrible against an aggressive player.

[SinPies 0]

Personally, I'd check/call the river.I'd check for a couple reasons:#1 if he has nothing or something weak, he will fold, but if he has nothing, or something weak and he sees you check, he might try to bluff#2 if he does have a flush, you don't want to pay 2 bets for itI absolutely hate bet/folding on the river, unless I'm taking a stab, I will almost never bet/fold.

what does c/c accomplish that b/f doesnt?clarkmeister's theorem broboth options are -EVb/f is less -EV

well check/call you are investing 1 bet, bet/fold you are investing 1 bet, except when you bet'/fold you don't get to see a showdown and you have 0% chance of winning. Check/call you might even win the hand who knows.Also, if you check it might tempt him to bluff at the pot

If you have the best hand on this river, your opponent will most likely check behind you. If you check and then call a bet, you'll run into a better hand and lose more often than someone with a worse hand (two pair, top pair, smaller set) will bet into you. On the other hand, if you bet into the four flush board, you'll often get called by the two pair / top pair / worse set hands. Or the guy who hit the straight with AQ or Q10 on the river may actually fold (though this isn't as likely, you give him the opportunity to fold if you lead).Bet/Fold is better because you give yourself more ways to win the pot.I'm new, by the way. Great forum.

[TheIceman05 0]

I'm brand-new to the strategy forum, and I'm already quite impressed. I'm playing a ton now, and my close-knit group of poker-theorist/friends is falling apart, so I need to be able to go somewhere where I can engage in some poker-related discourse, and argue vehemently about the value of raising early limpers in late position with AQo. Hope to be disagreeing with all of you. Frequently. Ice

[wrto4556 0]

but C/C isn't terrible against an aggressive player

That's a very accurate statement.

[BigDMcGee 3,367]

No one raises without the flush... I have raised in this very situation with nothing ( or very little) when the four card flush is out there.. for that very reason... because the board looks so very scary, your raise looks really believable. It's one of the few times a raise on the river can win you a pot. Therefore, I think b/f or c/c is really dependant on your opponent... if he's a tricky bluffer, c/c is better, if he's cally wally, b/f is better..