33 on the button

[wrto4556 0]

The blinds are loose and passive5/10 (8 handed)Preflop: I get delt 3 3 on the Button.Everyone folds to me, I call, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (3sb) Q 7 4 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.Turn: (2.5BB) 8 (2 players)SB checks, I bet, SB calls.River: (4.5BB) A (2 players)SB checks, I check.

[Vade 0]

Looks fineThat flop clearly helped no one, but they don't know that it didn't help you :)It's basically similar to if you had flopped 2nd pair, right? Keep betting til someone challenges you and check the end

[cdddc75 0]

If SB's WtSD% is below normal, I'd fire that last bullet.No steal raise preflop? I know it's loose/passive and they probably call, but it helps sell your hand...

[Absolute 0]

The blinds are loose and passive5/10 (8 handed)Preflop: I get delt 3 3 on the Button.Everyone folds to me, I call, SB calls, BB calls.Flop: (3sb) Q 7 4 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.Turn: (2.5BB) 8 (2 players)SB checks, I bet, SB calls.River: (4.5BB) A (2 players)SB checks, I check.

im not sure about the turn bet...

[Rocketwadster 0]

Shouldn't you be raising here pre-flop? Nothing else to comment on except that... :wink:

[wrto4556 0]

Preflop and turn are the discussion...so, discuss!Why shouldn't I bet the turn?What does raising prflop accomplish?WHy should I bet the turn?What does limping preflop accomplish?

[Rocketwadster 0]

Preflop and turn are the discussion...so, discuss! Says who? let's start from the beginning shall we...Why shouldn't I bet the turn? I would, no idea why you wouldntWhat does raising prflop accomplish? Many things. Gives you a chance to win uncontested, also help set up the turn bet (which I said I would do)WHy should I bet the turn? To test the waters, to see what is out there. For one small bet, you got one guy to fold, and the other only called (looks like he is weak to me...what he does next will show if it was a trap or not).What does limping preflop accomplish?

You got to see a flop for cheap...whoop-de-freaking-do

[wrto4556 0]

Why shouldn't I bet the turn? I would, no idea why you wouldnt

Because the players in question will likely give me a free showdown if I check the turn.

What does raising prflop accomplish? Many things. Gives you a chance to win uncontested, also help set up the turn bet (which I said I would do)

It doesn't give me a chance to win uncontested. Do you see why?

WHy should I bet the turn? To test the waters, to see what is out there. For one small bet, you got one guy to fold, and the other only called (looks like he is weak to me...what he does next will show if it was a trap or not).

testing the waters is one of my last concern. I tested the waters on the flop.

What does limping preflop accomplish? You got to see a flop for cheap...whoop-de-freaking-do

That should be important. Would you rather see the flop for 2sb than one...having the same postflop results?

[Absolute 0]

ok a few things...i think 33 is a limp here since he says the blinds are loose, its probably a fold otherwise, but id have to think about that. raising is horrible.the turn is interesting. is seems like you are probably betting to force flush and straight draws to pay, but if you check you might get a free showdown. on that note, a free showdown really accomplishes nothing.i suppose you played it right.the river check is standard.

[Whatever 1]

I don't like limping with 33 on the button with no callers behind you. Raise and see if they fold. If they raise back then 3-bet no? I like the turn bet and would rather see a bet on the river but I understand checking. Is this a check call situation or check fold on the river?

[wrto4556 0]

If I was bet into on the river, I would fold without a second thought.

[badgerbucco 0]

My thought was all about the pre-flop limp. Here are the possibilities if you raise with some guesses about chances.You take the blinds: 25% You get heads up against the big blind: 50%You get heads up against the small blind: 5% You get raised: 10%Both call: 10%The raise protects a hand that is a favorite against most hands heads-up but becomes a dog vs. two players. They may not know that, but by raising you make them even more unsure about what you might hold and increase your fold equity on later rounds. Given the chances above (you have a better sense), I say you are in good shape 75% of the time and in tough shape 25% of the time. However, you have the advantage of position and the likelihood that it will be checked to you on the flop. In addition, you have gained information about the relative strengths of the blinds while giving little away about your hand and while creating uncertainty in their minds. You could be on a blind steal or you could have a hand. They can't tell. With the limp, it's almost certain that you have two callers or a raiser. A hand with which you would win more than half the time if you raise becomes a dog, especially if you are raised. You will have to call the raise to see a flop and when it doesn't hit, you'll have to fold. Just because it didn't happen in this hand doesn't mean it's not a possibility in a situation like this.

[Absolute 0]

I don't like limping with 33 on the button with no callers behind you. Raise and see if they fold. If they raise back then 3-bet no? I like the turn bet and would rather see a bet on the river but I understand checking. Is this a check call situation or check fold on the river?

we might need to discuss it, but i think its important that everyone realizes how bad raising here is.

[wrto4556 0]

The blinds are loose and passive

[badgerbucco 0]

Raising is only bad if there is a high probability that the blinds will both call. That may be the case here. I mean, there is loose and then there is LOOSE. I'm not sure where this game falls. Maybe wrto can elucidate.

[Whatever 1]

we might need to discuss it, but i think its important that everyone realizes how bad raising here is.

Please discuss.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Why shouldn't I bet the turn? I would, no idea why you wouldnt

Because the players in question will likely give me a free showdown if I check the turn. What? How did you come up with that? Based on the results, or based on them being loose passive? If they are passive, why not bet out? Seems backwards to me.

What does raising prflop accomplish? Many things. Gives you a chance to win uncontested, also help set up the turn bet (which I said I would do)

It doesn't give me a chance to win uncontested. Do you see why? No, please explain.

WHy should I bet the turn? To test the waters, to see what is out there. For one small bet, you got one guy to fold, and the other only called (looks like he is weak to me...what he does next will show if it was a trap or not).

testing the waters is one of my last concern. I tested the waters on the flop. Yes, but why give this seemingly weak hand a free card to possibly beat you?

What does limping preflop accomplish? You got to see a flop for cheap...whoop-de-freaking-do

That should be important. Would you rather see the flop for 2sb than one...having the same postflop results?

You do not know that they are going to call. Being loose passive doesnt necessarily mean that they will call your button raise with anything, just a wider array of hands.I have much to learn, and am not trying to sound argumentative (especially if I am way off on a lot of my comments). Please explain some of your a little more please, so I can try to see the other side of the coon :wink:

[Absolute 0]

we might need to discuss it, but i think its important that everyone realizes how bad raising here is.

Please discuss.

the blinds are loose and passivethey care going to call a raise.you like having 4 opponents in a pot with 3-3?

[badgerbucco 0]

My take is that if they will both call the raise 40-50% of the time raising is a bad move. Of course, they would need to be VERY loose. Not all loose/passive players will call a raise in the blinds that often. wrto-would they both have called a pre-flop raise around 50% of the time?

[Rocketwadster 0]

the blinds are loose and passivethey care going to call a raise.you like having 4 opponents in a pot with 3-3?No, but 2 wouldn't be a disaster. If you aren't going to raise here with them though, why bother even playing them here? Did I not just read in another post where raising with KJ offsuit UTG is a good play, but raising with a small pocket pair from the button isn't? :wink:

[wrto4556 0]

Preflop:Raising accomplishes nothing. IMO, it should go: limping > folding > raising.I will take the blinds here about 0% of the time because they are loose. Also, loose players don't understand that a raise means a good hand so they are going to call down with any peice of the board. I have 0% fold equity. Obviously, raising accomplishes nothing. I don't want to fold because I am in position against weak opponents with what is likely to be the best hand. So, I limp. Another benefit of limping is that noone has control of the pot, if one of the loose/passive players catch anything on the flop they are more likely to bet it instead of checking to the preflop raiser. I get a better feel of where I am postflop by limping preflop. I would also limp with hands like A7o and K7s against very loose blinds.Turn:I bet because I want to charge hands I have beat. Flush draws and straight draws are out there. But not only that, many poor players peel on the flop with any two cards. I don't want to check the turn and give a free card to two overs that are just peeling on the flop.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Excellent explanation. Now I see where you are coming from. I don't entirely agree with you thoughts on what the blinds are going to do pre-flop to a raise, but now that I see WHY you would do something, it makes sense. :wink:

[badgerbucco 0]

Wow - 0%. There's nothing like absolute certainty to make one feel warm and fuzzy inside. However, if it's anything close to that then raising pre-flop is the worst play. At that point, I view calling and folding a relative equals, with calling slightly on top because of the position advantage.I'd love to find a 5/10 table this loose/passive.

[KDawgCometh 2]

Preflop and turn are the discussion...so, discuss!Why shouldn't I bet the turn?-loose players probably hit some of this, and since they're passive they won't raise w/o a monsterWhat does raising prflop accomplish?-nnothing, muck itWHy should I bet the turn?- to try to get them to fold. I know My indignant ass would've fired at itWhat does limping preflop accomplish?-nothing, muck itI can't believe that you of all people Open Donked on the button here, momentary lapse of reason? You know that you should've just sent it into the muck

[wrto4556 0]

limping > folding > raisingKdawg, this is straight out of HEPFAP. Read my explination.