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Discomfort With The Bailout


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#21 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:35 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:33 PM, said:

1.) It was just an example.2.) Very possible, it may also be paid out over time3.) That is a ridiculous statement
1. ok2. ok3. Need and want are two different things.
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#22 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:35 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 2:31 PM, said:

Why should he get any bonus if they're still losing money?Maybe he can wait till year 2 for his bonus.Nobody needs 9m a year anyway.
Because that is what he is worth in the market....and I may not need $9MM, but I sure do want it. I have way more guns (and guitars) than I NEED, but not all that I want.

#23 Mercury69

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:37 AM

One thing is certain: The rush to solve the crisis has nothing at all to do with the impending election.
"We had all the momentum. We were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back." —Raoul Duke, Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

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#24 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:37 AM

View PostPot Odds RAC, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:35 PM, said:

Because that is what he is worth in the market....and I may not need $9MM, but I sure do want it. I have way more guns (and guitars) than I NEED, but not all that I want.
How can he have value if he's losing money?
-Kurt

#25 El Guapo

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:39 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:35 AM, said:

1. ok2. ok3. Need and want are two different things.
I'll go back to sports as an example. Soriano is making what. 20 Million a year? Does his salary provide the Cubs with more income and improve the revenue? Simple answer is yes, he helps them win, put fans in the seats and take them to the playoffs were the get more income.If the Cubs did not pay him, he would have gone somewhere else, the cubs would most likely have had to gotten a worse player, that may have not provided the same type of return, even though they paid him less.Does Soriano need 20 M a year. No, but it is worth it for the Cubs to pay him that.Same thing applies to a flailing company. You are going to have to pay, and pay heavily to attract the top talent. And like I said it may be with stock options, who knows.

#26 El Guapo

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:40 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

How can he have value if he's losing money?
Come on. I have to believe you are smarter than this.

#27 Pot Odds RAC

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:40 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 2:37 PM, said:

How can he have value if he's losing money?
You're kidding, right?

#28 Nimue1995

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:42 AM

I've found myself wishing the last couple of days that my parents were still alive. They lived through the Great Depression and I'd really like to have had their perspective on all this. Anyway, from what I understand is that if this bailout, however it goes down doesn't happen then credit is basically dried up. Banks don't have money to lend, mortgage companies don't either or if they do they choose not to because they don't know where this will go. And eventually this gets down to basic consumer in that credit cards become more difficult to get and the terms tighten up etc. So we then see the true inflationary aspect of the credit economy. 1. How much would your house be worth if nobody could get a mortgage? 2. But if we prop this system up, then how inflationary does it become? Do we get to a point where the dollar is devalued against other currency? After all, where do you think the $700 billion will come from except that the U.S. government is printing more money? I am very discomforted with the bailout and I wrote to my congresspeople to vote no on it.
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#29 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:43 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:39 PM, said:

I'll go back to sports as an example. Soriano is making what. 20 Million a year? Does his salary provide the Cubs with more income and improve the revenue? Simple answer is yes, he helps them win, put fans in the seats and take them to the playoffs were the get more income.If the Cubs did not pay him, he would have gone somewhere else, the cubs would most likely have had to gotten a worse player, that may have not provided the same type of return, even though they paid him less.Does Soriano need 20 M a year. No, but it is worth it for the Cubs to pay him that.Same thing applies to a flailing company. You are going to have to pay, and pay heavily to attract the top talent. And like I said it may be with stock options, who knows.
Fair enough. And that's fine if you go on a company by company basis, but all these huge companies are intertwined in the markets and the entire economy as a whole. There's just a lot more people to answer to. Paying Soriano is good for the cubs, and good for the owners, but it pretty much ends there. It doesn't help the fans other than mentally. It doesn't do anything for them financially. But economically we need to fix things for everyone, not just shareholders.
-Kurt

#30 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:44 AM

View PostPot Odds RAC, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:40 PM, said:

You're kidding, right?
If we're talking about a new guy taking over and helping fix things, that's different than just paying the guy who screwed up originally. I forgot about that aspect, so hopefully that's what you mean.
-Kurt

#31 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:45 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:40 PM, said:

Come on. I have to believe you are smarter than this.
Marginally.No, to be serious, I'm pretty smart, but I don't know much at all about the ins and outs of economics. But I see things in a semi general sense, and I can see there are major issues and I personally think the entire system is bad.
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#32 Loismustdie

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:46 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:12 AM, said:

Sounds flawed to me.It's great for the top half.... not so much for everyone else. What about those people who still can't afford to buy a house? I don't think we should hand out money either, but I think that wages are ridiculously disproportionate for the cost of living in most places now. It's not about welfare as far as I'm concerned. I hate welfare too. I think we should cut it off completely and let them rot if they don't get their shit together. But there's also the issue that you can't create enough jobs for that to work unless the bottom half has money to spend, and job wages are big enough to survive. Right now they're not. At least not in the places with the biggest populations.The entire system is flawed. I wish I had a solution, but it seems pretty apparent if you look at the classes all the way down to the bottom, that something is obviously not working. Seems to me that the whole system is backwards. The people up top should be making money because the ones on the bottom are funneling it up the chain. But it's pretty hard to do that when there isn't any money left on the bottom. It has to come back around somehow, but everyone at the top is so greedy that it never will. Salaries keep inflating up top and hardly moving at the bottom, that sounds like a recipe for exactly what's happening right now.
It sounds flawed because???????....... People get paid what they are worth for the jobs they do. You're reasoning is flawed. You're young, though. There is time.
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#33 El Guapo

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:47 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

Fair enough. And that's fine if you go on a company by company basis, but all these huge companies are intertwined in the markets and the entire economy as a whole. There's just a lot more people to answer to. Paying Soriano is good for the cubs, and good for the owners, but it pretty much ends there. It doesn't help the fans other than mentally. It doesn't do anything for them financially. But economically we need to fix things for everyone, not just shareholders.
There is no other way but to go company to company. And the cubs are intertwined with the surrounding chicago area. The 7 story sports authority that has an entire level of cubs gear, Murphy's bar, and the other restaurants surrounding Wrigley, the hotel and airline companies that I gave my money to, to fly into Chicago just to see the cubs.If the Cubs were totally crappy and on the verge of failing, all of that would be affected to.There is a merging of Micro and Macro economics here.

#34 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:48 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:46 PM, said:

It sounds flawed because???????....... People get paid what they are worth for the jobs they do. You're reasoning is flawed. You're young, though. There is time.
It's fine to scale it upwards. But the size of the scale is screwed up. It looks more like a poker tourney payout. It shouldn't be that steep.
-Kurt

#35 El Guapo

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:48 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

If we're talking about a new guy taking over and helping fix things, that's different than just paying the guy who screwed up originally. I forgot about that aspect, so hopefully that's what you mean.
That is all I have been talking about.

#36 Loismustdie

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:49 AM

View PostMercury69, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

One thing is certain: The rush to solve the crisis has nothing at all to do with the impending election.
Lol. I don't think so. Democrats want it to go through to bad, and the more economic turmoil the better for them. I think this is actually a case where they recognize something needs to be done.
So much for a comeback.

#37 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:49 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:47 PM, said:

There is no other way but to go company to company. And the cubs are intertwined with the surrounding chicago area. The 7 story sports authority that has an entire level of cubs gear, Murphy's bar, and the other restaurants surrounding Wrigley, the hotel and airline companies that I gave my money to, to fly into Chicago just to see the cubs.If the Cubs were totally crappy and on the verge of failing, all of that would be affected to.There is a merging of Micro and Macro economics here.
Sure there's things you can point to, but when you branch outside of this city it becomes pretty insignificant.
-Kurt

#38 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:51 AM

View PostEl Guapo, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:48 PM, said:

That is all I have been talking about.
I was with you at first. Got caught up arguing too many different things at once.I still think that the guy who steps in might have value, but I think you need to limit how ridiculous his salary is until the company actually makes enough money to pay him that much.
-Kurt

#39 Loismustdie

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:51 AM

View PostSuited_Up, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

It's fine to scale it upwards. But the size of the scale is screwed up. It looks more like a poker tourney payout. It shouldn't be that steep.
This is incorrect. There is not much else to say about this.
So much for a comeback.

#40 Suited_Up

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:53 AM

View PostLoismustdie, on Friday, September 26th, 2008, 1:51 PM, said:

This is incorrect. There is not much else to say about this.
I'd say the same about your comment.
-Kurt




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