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Preflop Raising At Loose Cheap Tables


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#21 Whatever

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 06:09 AM

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I don't think you fully grasp how much more nutty the swings can be in LHE, also. LHE is a game where you're going to feel like you have no control at all a lot of the time. It's going to drive anyone risk-averse completely bonkers.
I just now hit 10,000 hands after switching back to LHE 6 max the past 2 1/2 weeks. Granted it's not full ring but what you said hit the nail on the head. For me right now it's ALL about tilt control and making sure I don't become a calling station (also a sign of tilt for me). The basic strategy at .25/.50 6 max seems pretty straight forward to me but the game can be soooooo much torture until you give up your emotional investment in the ridiculous beats. Right now I can handle the first 50 beats in a 4 hour session just fine but I'm still working on the other 150. :)I attached my 5 tabled session from last night. I'm pretty sure I didn't tilt and basically played the same style throughout but the swings were crazy.

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#22 antistuff

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 07:56 AM

View PostDirtydutch, on Wednesday, September 17th, 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

I don't think you fully grasp how much more nutty the swings can be in LHE, also. LHE is a game where you're going to feel like you have no control at all a lot of the time. It's going to drive anyone risk-averse completely bonkers. You're also quickly going to have to learn that putting in money with little chance of winning is OK. You may like it better, but it's not because limited betting increments make it a predictable game. The reason it's a softer game is because it's so gambley. Maybe we have different ideas of "gambley," which is likely since we invented the word, but if you start putting in a few thousands hands/week, be prepared for swings like you haven't felt before. I think the problem is just that you don't have the bankroll to play with them properly.
you mean there are games that don't make you fee like this sometimes?
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#23 jmbreslin

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 09:45 AM

View PostDirtydutch, on Wednesday, September 17th, 2008, 11:09 PM, said:

The trick then should be talking them into playing lower, so you feel OK blowing like 5+ buy-ins in a night.
No chance of that. These guys have actually been playing together for about 10 years. I played with them in the early days when we were in university together and the stakes were lower, but bowed out when the stakes got higher and I couldn't afford it. I've just recently re-joined the game. I can afford to play the stakes they play, but with my level of financial responsibility (2 kids and a new house) I don't feel good about losing $100 or $125 on a Friday night of poker.I've actually been trying to introduce some other games that would give me an edge based on my experience. I tried 2-7 TD, which hasn't really caught on, and I may try Razz next. Taking them out of their comfort zone may be an effective strategy.
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#24 antistuff

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 03:45 PM

View Postjmbreslin, on Thursday, September 18th, 2008, 1:45 PM, said:

No chance of that. These guys have actually been playing together for about 10 years. I played with them in the early days when we were in university together and the stakes were lower, but bowed out when the stakes got higher and I couldn't afford it. I've just recently re-joined the game. I can afford to play the stakes they play, but with my level of financial responsibility (2 kids and a new house) I don't feel good about losing $100 or $125 on a Friday night of poker.I've actually been trying to introduce some other games that would give me an edge based on my experience. I tried 2-7 TD, which hasn't really caught on, and I may try Razz next. Taking them out of their comfort zone may be an effective strategy.
the solution for this is to have a wad of cash tucked aside that is only for poker. this way it doesn't matter if you take a loss it has nothing to do with the money you use for your day to day finances.
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#25 jmbreslin

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 04:17 PM

Note to self: find a wad of cash to put aside for poker.
的ntegrity is doing the right thing, even if nobody is watching." - Anonymous

#26 Zach6668

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 05:08 PM

It doesn't have to be a wad. Build a bankroll like everyone else. Complaining that you can't afford to lose $X is a cop-out. It's also an extremely easy problem to fix. 1) Don't play those stakes, or 2) Build your bankroll up to where you are comfortable playing those stakes. Seperate life and poker money.
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#27 Dirtydutch

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 11:21 PM

How much can you lose per weekend? Can you lose $50? Take a month off, put away the $200, throw it on Cake (w/ 33% rakeback), and sodomize the small stakes games every night until you've got 25 buy-ins for your friends' game. There's the start of a pretty solid roll.

#28 jmbreslin

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:02 AM

I've never really thought it about that way because the Friday games are more of a social activity for me - I don't think of them as part of my poker "career." I don't have a very active social life so it's a way for me to get out of the house and do something I enjoy with some buddies, while possibly making some money in the process. It's funny now that I think about it - I made my initial deposit on Stars of $175 and said that was all I was going to put into poker, but then I started putting $100 on the line a couple times per month playing on Friday nights.
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#29 Dirtydutch

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 04:02 PM

The world needs social players too, but if you want to make money at this, I think it's extremely important to have a bankroll separate from your life money. Mentioning this makes me seem like an ass, but I actually have quite a bit of money and could afford to lose a lot playing pretty high, but since I started taking poker seriously again, I saw it as really important to designate a bankroll appropriate for the stakes I could beat, and build it as I learn and get better. It's not the case for everyone, but for most people, even if they can afford to, buying in every time they sit down, paying for it like you're buying a pair of pants or whatever, allows them to really delude themselves about their results. And if you have a family, I would imagine a separate roll would take a lot of stresses off what happens to the money whether you win or lose. Do it.

#30 jmbreslin

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 04:49 PM

I don't think I could convince the wife to let me put aside several hundred dollars for my friday night poker bankroll...
的ntegrity is doing the right thing, even if nobody is watching." - Anonymous

#31 Dirtydutch

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 05:34 PM

But you could convince her to let you lose several hundred over a month or two? Doesn't she have any hobbies or pleasure expenses? I'll bet hers wouldn't end up making money.

#32 jmbreslin

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 05:47 AM

LOL, I joke about that with her all the time. The difference between my poker and her fancy jeans is that I can actually make money. She says, yeah but I can get years of enjoyment from my jeans while your poker lasts one evening. It's quite a debate.
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#33 Dirtydutch

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 10:51 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Saturday, September 20th, 2008, 5:47 AM, said:

LOL, I joke about that with her all the time. The difference between my poker and her fancy jeans is that I can actually make money. She says, yeah but I can get years of enjoyment from my jeans while your poker lasts one evening. It's quite a debate.
If it's a proper bankroll, in theory it should last forever.

#34 RabidTortuga

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 04:43 AM

View PostDirtydutch, on Saturday, September 20th, 2008, 2:51 PM, said:

If it's a proper bankroll, in theory it should last forever...
...if one is or soon becomes a winning player.
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#35 tj9422-

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 06:48 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Wednesday, September 17th, 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

I guess we have different ideas of what gambling is. I'm a risk-averse type of person so I don't like putting large amounts of my money on the line. That's why I'm much more comfortable playing tourney NLHE, where the risk is limited, than cash NLHE. In LHE you may end up with more challenging situations than in NLHE, but your risk is still limited.The other thing I don't like about cash NLHE is that bad players who are aggressive and have a gambler's mentality (and who either have a lot of money or play like it's no object) can overpower people who have a good grasp of the fundamentals but don't have the same aggressive, play-like-money-is-no-object attitude. This is precisely why I struggle at my Friday night home game - I know I have a much better grasp of poker than the guys I play with and I know I have the ability to outplay them, but because I'm more concerned about my budget I tend to play too tight and cautious and I get pushed around. Unfortunately I can't convince them to play tourney style.
I ran into the same trouble at my home games. I just started invited them to games at my house that where set up as limit game or tourney style and they cought on.

#36 jmbreslin

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 08:11 AM

View Posttj9422-, on Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

I ran into the same trouble at my home games. I just started invited them to games at my house that where set up as limit game or tourney style and they cought on.
I tried pushing the tourney idea but most of them hate tourney poker. They want the constant action of cash games. The odd time we have played a tourney they opt for stupidly fast structures so the tourneys play quickly. I've also moved about 20 minutes north, so none of them want to come up here. I have to see if I can find some local tourney games in my new hood.
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#37 Dirtydutch

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 06:24 PM

View PostRabidTortuga, on Sunday, September 21st, 2008, 4:43 AM, said:

...if one is or soon becomes a winning player.
Two things: I sort of assume that anyone serious enough to have thousands of posts here has reasonable enough in-game mechanics to beat home games or micro limit online games, and "proper bankroll" means that if not, it's large enough to sustain through the learning process.

#38 checkymcfold

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 12:10 AM

just to fix the pokerstove-related weird discussion:JJ IS a pair, and most randomly chosen hands only make a pair bigger than it around 20% of the time.AK, when it makes a pair, makes the biggest pair.96s, when it makes a pair, usually makes 2nd or 3rd pair.i'm not quite sure why we're even discussing the relative ranks of these hands?that said, if there are 5 limpers and you have 96s on the button, raise. the reason for doing so has less to do with your hand's overall equity than it does to do with the fact that draws have a lot more potential equity when played in position, due to free card plays, value raises, etc. single pair hands have similar potential equity from most positions, since how one should play tp depends more on position relative to a preflop raiser than on absolute position. also, inflated pots are better for drawing hands since they don't really play any differently in a big pot or a small one (unless it's very small and we're folding the turn with an oesd), but single pair hands in inflated pots can allow stations to play unintentionally correct postflop when we flop a pair and they have overcards, etc. that's not to say that you shouldn't raise ak, but rather that when you do, in a very loose game, you have to realize that idiots mashing the call button are going to be doing so correctly postflop more often than they would if the pot were smaller, and that your variance with AK is usually going to be higher than with 96s thereby (if you're playing at LP games).i'm quite drunk. sorry if that didn't make sense, but i think it did.
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#39 jmbreslin

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 05:35 AM

Actually that was quite articulate for a drunk guy.It seems to me that one of the challenges of moving from NLHE to LHE is not being able to rely on the NLHE player's bread-and-butter, the PF raise and CB to either steal pots or charge draws incorrect prices. Say you raise AA and get 4 callers and the flop is draw heavy. Do you keep betting until a draw completes, or do you tend to pull back?
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#40 checkymcfold

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:47 AM

View Postjmbreslin, on Monday, September 22nd, 2008, 9:35 AM, said:

Actually that was quite articulate for a drunk guy.It seems to me that one of the challenges of moving from NLHE to LHE is not being able to rely on the NLHE player's bread-and-butter, the PF raise and CB to either steal pots or charge draws incorrect prices. Say you raise AA and get 4 callers and the flop is draw heavy. Do you keep betting until a draw completes, or do you tend to pull back?
if i raise preflop with AA and get four callers, my biggest concern is doing whatever i can to knock people out of the pot on the flop on pretty much any texture board. b/3b, c/r, whatever. if players are flatting a fairly small range of hands, pps, and like Q10-A10 only, and i raise AA, four of those guys flat, and the flop comes 10JQ sss (and i don't have the As), i often c/c the flop to keep the pot small-ish and donk a bricked turn to avoid shoving money into the pot when i'm at best dodging 1/2 the deck and at worst already fairly far behind. doing something like that seems like it costs a lot of equity, but if you're really thinking about your opponents' ranges, it's not really costing us much at all if the board comes that ugly.
QUOTE (Dirtydutch @ Tuesday, December 2nd, 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there are two things LHE players like, they are weed and pornography. The third would be kittens. LHE does not appear on the list.








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