Thoughts Please.

[ktjb23 0]

Me again...sorry. EDIT- Mods, sorry, move this to cash games if it's more suited there...I forgot about that sub fourm :(Thoughts on this hand if possible. Just sat down at the table, 4th or 5th hand in. Most of the players seem to be calling stations..but, like I say..Ive seen hardly any hands.Thanks in advance, sorry to keep bugging you all! Im particularly looking at the bets on the flop, turn and river...I feel like I seriously underbet them, regardless of the result. If thats the case, then at least I'm learning...PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($1.55)UTG+1 ($5)MP1 ($0.89)MP2 ($1.25)MP3 ($5)CO ($8.54)Button ($3.35)Hero (SB) ($3.21)BB ($5.20)Preflop: Hero is SB with A, QUTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.01, BB checksFlop: ($0.14) 6, Q, J(7 players)Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, UTG+1 calls $0.06, MP3 calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06, 1 foldTurn: ($0.50) 6(6 players)Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10River: ($0.90) 7(4 players)Hero bets $0.16, UTG calls $0.16, 2 foldsTotal pot: $1.22 | Rake: $0.05Results in white below: Hero had A, Q (two pair, Queens and sixes).UTG had J, 4 (two pair, Jacks and sixes).Outcome: Hero won $1.17

[kobe2odom8 14]

u play goot!

[SCS 0]

Why aren't you raising preflop?

[trystero 0]

No offense but you need to learn the basics of poker. AQ you should raise it up big preflop. Your hand rates to be best, so get value from it, and you want to isolate a player and take the pot down preflop. Also you stand to win a huge pot if you outflop a dominated hand. On every street you have to bet more. Like, way more. You're giving everyone fantastic odds to draw out on you, and you aren't getting any sort of value from weaker hands.Winning poker's about aggression (controlled and reasonable, of course). You're far too passive; although you're doing the right action, betting, you aren't doing enough of it.

[antistuff 0]

with all of those calls is not raising this preflop really that bad?

[babylondonks 5]

As mentioned a few times, you really want to raise pre-flop, probably to about 0.12 (although I hate FR with a passion), and then on the flop you have to bet closer to the potsize. I normally keep the bets between 2/3 of the pot and the pot. Chances are you'd still be getting called down with the J and you'd win a much bigger pot.

[antistuff 0]

i will elaborate. you are oop of position with a million players with a hand that does not like multiway pots and once you raise and one player calls the rest of them are calling also. again, why does everybody want to raise this preflop? cuz its aqo and we raise aqo preflop?

[trystero 0]

because we'll build a pot and stack worse hands.Convert to $10 nl because I cannot make heads or tails of $2 ratios5 limpersHero makes it $13 calls Pot is now ~$4.10, so it's easy to get stacks in when you rate to have the best hand. Flop TPTK / ace / monster then bet close to the pot and call any raise / get it in on virtually every turn. These players are probably calling with worse hands and, unless they flop miraculously (i.e. A5 on a AT5 board) we are stacking them. Whiff then check/fold.Or5 limpersHero makes it $11 callPot is ~$2.50, bet 2/3 of that and take it down most of the time.Certainly I'd rather do the above than play AQ in a 7-way limped pot OOP.

[babylondonks 5]

because we'll build a pot and stack worse hands.Convert to $10 nl because I cannot make heads or tails of $2 ratios5 limpersHero makes it $13 calls Pot is now ~$4.10, so it's easy to get stacks in when you rate to have the best hand. Flop TPTK / ace / monster then bet close to the pot and call any raise / get it in on virtually every turn. These players are probably calling with worse hands and, unless they flop miraculously (i.e. A5 on a AT5 board) we are stacking them. Whiff then check/fold.Or5 limpersHero makes it $11 callPot is ~$2.50, bet 2/3 of that and take it down most of the time.Certainly I'd rather do the above than play AQ in a 7-way limped pot OOP.

Case in pointFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($3.65)SB ($3.70)Hero (BB) ($17.05)UTG ($9)MP ($3.25)CO ($7.75)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, AUTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.55, 1 fold, MP calls $0.45, Button calls $0.45, 1 foldFlop: ($1.85) J, A, 2(3 players)Hero bets $1.35, 2 foldsTotal pot: $1.85 | Rake: $0.15

[antistuff 0]

because we'll build a pot and stack worse hands.Convert to $10 nl because I cannot make heads or tails of $2 ratios5 limpersHero makes it $13 calls Pot is now ~$4.10, so it's easy to get stacks in when you rate to have the best hand. Flop TPTK / ace / monster then bet close to the pot and call any raise / get it in on virtually every turn. These players are probably calling with worse hands and, unless they flop miraculously (i.e. A5 on a AT5 board) we are stacking them. Whiff then check/fold.Or5 limpersHero makes it $11 callPot is ~$2.50, bet 2/3 of that and take it down most of the time.Certainly I'd rather do the above than play AQ in a 7-way limped pot OOP.

easy to get stacks in, or forced to get stacks in with top pair becouse you've bloated the pot? oh, and you've given everybody a great price to try to hit something that will stack you. and players who have like 60bbs in front of them, they were correct to call preflop and can now profitably call you with a draw. if i see a seven handed pot and look down and see aqo i feel disgusted. this is a marginal situation. if we had enough data i would make a bet that all but the strongest players actually lose money here. just becouse its generally considered correct to raise aqo doesn't mean you should always do it. im not trying to be a dick, im being argumentative to generate discussion (and becouse i think im right), but you haven't convinced me that its a good idea.

[SCS 0]

easy to get stacks in, or forced to get stacks in with top pair becouse you've bloated the pot? oh, and you've given everybody a great price to try to hit something that will stack you. and players who have like 60bbs in front of them, they were correct to call preflop and can now profitably call you with a draw. if i see a seven handed pot and look down and see aqo i feel disgusted. this is a marginal situation. if we had enough data i would make a bet that all but the strongest players actually lose money here. just becouse its generally considered correct to raise aqo doesn't mean you should always do it. im not trying to be a dick, im being argumentative to generate discussion (and becouse i think im right), but you haven't convinced me that its a good idea.

His raise size was the problem in his example, not the raise itself. Raising is definitely correct, but we do have to take into consideration the number of limpers and, as the case in op's post, the fact that we are oop, and size our raises accordingly. The fact that we will be oop postflop, makes raising here even more correct since getting value for our hand against 6 other opponents is going to be tough. Also, we'd much rather play AQo against 1 or 2 opponents. Playing AQo multiway oop, is just not profitable.

[antistuff 0]

His raise size was the problem in his example, not the raise itself. Raising is definitely correct, but we do have to take into consideration the number of limpers and, as the case in op's post, the fact that we are oop, and size our raises accordingly. The fact that we will be oop postflop, makes raising here even more correct since getting value for our hand against 6 other opponents is going to be tough. Also, we'd much rather play AQo against 1 or 2 opponents. Playing AQo multiway oop, is just not profitable.

so if you know four of them are calling a $2 raise you're not going to bother?

[MovingIn 0]

Playing AQo multiway oop is not profitable. AQo loses a lot of value multiway.Who in this hand is calling a large PF raise after limping in? And with what?

[trystero 0]

quote feature's not working for some reason.I don't think overbetting the pot gives anyone the "right price" - not at first, certainly, and only if a few players call, but that's unavoidable. Same problem occurs with a big pocket pair. I already outlined the likely scenarios. I can win a huge pot because when we go to the flop my hand stands to be best. They're going to call me with hands like AT/A4s/QJ/KJ/KQ, some pocket pairs and everyone's favorite, the 67o. When I do flop a pair it's more often than not the best pair. Yes, sometimes I get unlucky, and ace rag outflops me - and sometimes 55 hits its set against my TPTK - and then the OESD hits on the turn - but in the long run my AQ will flop best. I'll get weaker hands to commit on the flop due to the size of the pot and the inexperience of the other players. Who calls 10x BB raise with 57 and then folds on a Q53 flop? Ideally, dominated hands call our raise and then commit their stack when they hit (e.g. A7 on the AJ5 flop).What's your play with aces, kings, and queens here?AQ multiway OOP is a nightmare. Last thing I need is to play TPTK with 7 other players in the hand.

[SCS 0]

so if you know four of them are calling a $2 raise you're not going to bother?

I'm saying that we should size our raises so that we aren't oop with AQo in a bloated multiway pot.

[antistuff 0]

Playing AQo multiway oop is not profitable. AQo loses a lot of value multiway.Who in this hand is calling a large PF raise after limping in? And with what?

once one idiot calls everybody can call. with 6 idiots to get through....

[antistuff 0]

quote feature's not working for some reason.I don't think overbetting the pot gives anyone the "right price" - not at first, certainly, and only if a few players call, but that's unavoidable. Same problem occurs with a big pocket pair. I already outlined the likely scenarios. I can win a huge pot because when we go to the flop my hand stands to be best. They're going to call me with hands like AT/A4s/QJ/KJ/KQ, some pocket pairs and everyone's favorite, the 67o. When I do flop a pair it's more often than not the best pair. Yes, sometimes I get unlucky, and ace rag outflops me - and sometimes 55 hits its set against my TPTK - and then the OESD hits on the turn - but in the long run my AQ will flop best. I'll get weaker hands to commit on the flop due to the size of the pot and the inexperience of the other players. Who calls 10x BB raise with 57 and then folds on a Q53 flop? Ideally, dominated hands call our raise and then commit their stack when they hit (e.g. A7 on the AJ5 flop).What's your play with aces, kings, and queens here?AQ multiway OOP is a nightmare. Last thing I need is to play TPTK with 7 other players in the hand.

thats the only thing you got going for you. 57s can call you after two people call with whatever, and can call your all in on that flop either just fine or not to bad if they don't have 100bbs.

[pokerinc 0]

Case in pointFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton ($3.65)SB ($3.70)Hero (BB) ($17.05)UTG ($9)MP ($3.25)CO ($7.75)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, AUTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.55, 1 fold, MP calls $0.45, Button calls $0.45, 1 foldFlop: ($1.85) J, A, 2(3 players)Hero bets $1.35, 2 foldsTotal pot: $1.85 | Rake: $0.15

This hand has signifigantly less limpers than op's hand, and is a solid flop to continue w/.w/ 7 people in the hand at this limit I may crank it up to 15bbs and call a shove or complete and play the flop, raising anything less at the wheatpenny doesnt seem profitable.. OP, as played on the flop you can do it two ways, I'd bet closer to the pot and see what develops, or check, and go for a large check raise depending on flop betting texture. I'm even fine w/ check/folding to a funky line from 3 villians here IE; you check utg raises, utg p 1 calls, mp shoves....I'm out.

[trystero 0]

thats the only thing you got going for you. 57s can call you after two people call with whatever, and can call your all in on that flop either just fine or not to bad if they don't have 100bbs.

the "only thing" = I win more stacks than I lose. High variance, but seemingly +EV.Sometimes in poker two players can make the correct decision. If I bump it up with kings then they're also making the "right" play by calling. What do I care about that? I want to maximize my hand's value.

[nutzzcase 0]

Fold PF and leave the table.... u already won enough.

[MovingIn 0]

once one idiot calls everybody can call. with 6 idiots to get through....

Without any reads, that's a defeatist attitude and doesn't help this discussion. We're not assured of six calls behind.

[antistuff 0]

the "only thing" = I win more stacks than I lose. High variance, but seemingly +EV.Sometimes in poker two players can make the correct decision. If I bump it up with kings then they're also making the "right" play by calling. What do I care about that? I want to maximize my hand's value.

if two people make the correct play neither of you have won anything except splitting the blinds and whatever dead money is in the pot.

[antistuff 0]

Without any reads, that's a defeatist attitude and doesn't help this discussion. We're not assured of six calls behind.

its not a defeatist attitude, its a realisitic one.

w/ 7 people in the hand at this limit I may crank it up to 15bbs and call a shove or complete and play the flop, raising anything less at the wheatpenny doesnt seem profitable.. OP, as played on the flop you can do it two ways, I'd bet closer to the pot and see what develops, or check, and go for a large check raise depending on flop betting texture. I'm even fine w/ check/folding to a funky line from 3 villians here IE; you check utg raises, utg p 1 calls, mp shoves....I'm out.

this is much more along my lines of thinking.

[ktjb23 0]

Thanks all for your input.Pre flop, the amount of callers scared me, which I'm aware isn't the way to think..and with each caller, AQo seemed weaker and weaker. Once the Q came down on the flop, I obv felt a little better, but each time I bet I knew it wasn't a big enough bet. I would have rather won the hand after the flop, than going all the way to the river...but, wasn't willing to push as hard, as in the back of my mind was AA, KK, QQ etc...this really help me back I think.I didn't enjoy the whole hand at ALL, regardless of the fact I won it..purely because the amount of initial caller threw me for a bit of a loop, and, being so new at the table, I had no idea of playing styles, ranges etc.Thanks again.

[Deftones150 0]

No offense but you need to learn the basics of poker. AQ you should raise it up big preflop. Your hand rates to be best, so get value from it, and you want to isolate a player and take the pot down preflop. Also you stand to win a huge pot if you outflop a dominated hand. On every street you have to bet more. Like, way more. You're giving everyone fantastic odds to draw out on you, and you aren't getting any sort of value from weaker hands.Winning poker's about aggression (controlled and reasonable, of course). You're far too passive; although you're doing the right action, betting, you aren't doing enough of it.

As someone who made it through $2NL I can tell you he is dead on with being aggressive. ESPECIALLY at that limit. Even though you are obviously taking it seriously and trying to improve a lot of people at this limit don't care. You can open up for 5-7x and it really doesn't make a difference who stays in the hand most of the time. The limp oop isn't the worst thing you can do but you win so much more by raising pf and making your bets closer to the size of the pot on each street because you get called down with worse so often. Its also easy to fold when you miss for the same reason so in the long run will win way more that you lose and you will be at $5NL before you know it. ALSO, buy in for the full $5 calling stations will throw you their stacks and you don't want to lose out on the extra value.