Top Pair Good Kicker Against A Nit.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Villain in this hand is a nit, way too tight. My read on him is weak/tight, but he hasn't shied away from several overshoves late in the tourney. For example, shoved 1600 into 300 pot. Seems to be very ABC, bets when has a hand and checks or folds when he doesnt.Hero is TAG, but has been very aggressive shorthanded and especially on the bubble, so my image may be more LAG.Chip stacks:SB: 3200BB(Villain): 2100Hero: 3700Blinds 80/160.Hero is Button with :qhPreflop:Hero raises to 400, SB folds, Villain calls.Flop: (Pot 880) :9sVillain insta-shoves for his remaining 1700.Hero....?Thought for a little while, thought that villain wouldve shoved PF with AQ, 99, QQ, AA, KK. I decided that if he had 44 or Q9, then good hand. I called.Thoughts?Edit: meant to say KK instead of AK in the range that villain wouldve reshoved with PF that we are behind. Obviously he would've reshoved AK too, but we actually want him to have that hand here so I didn't factor it in to that thinking.

[MovingIn 0]

Were any of these overshoves called down?

[copernicus 0]

Villain in this hand is a nit, way too tight. My read on him is weak/tight, but he hasn't shied away from several overshoves late in the tourney. For example, shoved 1600 into 300 pot. Seems to be very ABC, bets when has a hand and checks or folds when he doesnt.Hero is TAG, but has been very aggressive shorthanded and especially on the bubble, so my image may be more LAG.Chip stacks:SB: 3200BB(Villain): 2100Hero: 3700Blinds 80/160.Hero is Button with Preflop:Hero raises to 400, SB folds, Villain calls.Flop: (Pot 880) Villain insta-shoves for his remaining 1700.Hero....?Thought for a little while, thought that villain wouldve shoved PF with AQ, 99, QQ, AA, AK. I decided that if he had 44 or Q9, then good hand. I called.Thoughts?

Why would he overbet the pot with those hands PF? That would be playing pretty scared imo since the blinds arent that high yet. Im really not putting him on a flush draw 3 handed unless it has some other values to call a raise PF. It looks more like hes got something and the question is whether the something is a better or worse something.I dont see many "worse somethings" that wouldnt try and check the hand down, but then a really good something might very well c/r into your aggression unless hes got flush draw paranoia really bad. I really cant put him on a hand, and when I cant do that I usually fold unless Ive got good reason not too. With these stacks its by no means critical to play this hand. I just realized this is a 6 man table and this is the bubble, I was answering as if it was a 9 man and already in the money. I definitely fold. Hes not bluffing with that big a stack on the bubble, imo and if he is, nh.Edit: Seeing that it was a $109 it makes it an even tougher decision. Im starting to think he had KQ also! Its the hand thats most consistent with both of his actions.

[Mr. Sparco 2]

I really have no idea what to put villain on here. Assuming that your read on the hands he would shove preflop is correct, could he have some big draw here? JTd, or maybe KJd/KTd?Anyway, having no clue as to where I stand, I probably fold.

[simo_8ball 1]

Insta snapcall. I think he shows up with a ton of worse hands and draws, and very rarely a better hand.

[simo_8ball 1]

Why would he overbet the pot with those hands PF? That would be playing pretty scared imo since the blinds arent that high yet.

Huh? He has 13bb facing a raise. What do you suggest he does with AQ/AK/99/etc preflop other than shove?

[Mr. Sparco 2]

Huh? He has 13bb facing a raise. What do you suggest he does with AQ/AK/99/etc preflop other than shove?

For the AQ/AK case: being the big blind, he is getting 8:3 pot odds here, and a call is a little over 10% of his stack. I guess he could see a flop, fold if he misses, and push the one out of three times he hits.I personally like to make that play in these situations; is that a leak or actually a decent play?

[SwolyswoND 1]

For the AQ/AK case: being the big blind, he is getting 8:3 pot odds here, and a call is a little over 10% of his stack. I guess he could see a flop, fold if he misses, and push the one out of three times he hits.I personally like to make that play in these situations; is that a leak or actually a decent play?

13bb is typically a reshove range. You're looking to shove after someone else opens. Being on a 3-man bubble might change that a little I suppose, but as far as regular tourney play is concerned, 10bb is a shove or fold range, and about 12-15bb is looking for someone else to open and then for them to come over the top. I definitely think calling off 2.5bb-3bb with AQ/AK and then folding when you miss is a leak. You're actually well ahead of a villain's opening range, why let him win 67-75% of the pots just because you miss the flop? You might still be ahead of his KQ/QJ type hands, or you may have cut yourself short of a race against a small/med pp.

[copernicus 0]

Huh? He has 13bb facing a raise. What do you suggest he does with AQ/AK/99/etc preflop other than shove?

call. Play with it in ICM, The only repush hands are TT+,AKs

[SwolyswoND 1]

call. Play with it in ICM, The only repush hands are TT+,AKs

I've never used ICM, so I'm not sure what it is or how it calculates. But not reshoving with AQ or 99 is completely awful, IMO. Hero, as the big stack and on the button, has a very wide opening range. with 99 or AQ, you are going to have more bad flops than good flops. Since villain is OOP and he misses the flop, hero can easily take the pot away with a flop c-bet even if hero has also missed and is still behind. 99 reshoving can take down free chips when hero throws away hands like TJ through KQ, even AJ. Some heroes will even call the reshove with 77, 88 and be way behind. AQ reshoving will ensure that it gets to see the whole board when in a race against pairs, instead of just seeing a flop and folding. It also gains value from lagtards who cant fold AJ, KQ. I just dont see the point of calling off that much of your stack and seeing a flop when youre going to miss it 2 out of 3 times.

[simo_8ball 1]

call. Play with it in ICM, The only repush hands are TT+,AKs

I don't have the figures at the moment, but I'm almost certain that is very wrong.

[Mr. Sparco 2]

13bb is typically a reshove range. You're looking to shove after someone else opens. Being on a 3-man bubble might change that a little I suppose, but as far as regular tourney play is concerned, 10bb is a shove or fold range, and about 12-15bb is looking for someone else to open and then for them to come over the top. I definitely think calling off 2.5bb-3bb with AQ/AK and then folding when you miss is a leak. You're actually well ahead of a villain's opening range, why let him win 67-75% of the pots just because you miss the flop? You might still be ahead of his KQ/QJ type hands, or you may have cut yourself short of a race against a small/med pp.

It's 1.5BB here, right? I agree that for 2.5-3BB, it becomes a completely different story.

[SwolyswoND 1]

It's 1.5BB here, right? I agree that for 2.5-3BB, it becomes a completely different story.

1BB is already in the pot. Sure its 1.5-2 BB more to call, but the net result would be committing 2.5-3 BBs to the pot, where, if youre just looking to get lucky and catch, youre going to be folding at least 67% of the time. With a stack size as small as 13 BB's, you just cant afford to do that, as when you fold youre left with 10 BB's and then have to shove ATC if you get first-in vigorish. A reshove is necessary in that spot.

[MovingIn 0]

Were any of these overshoves called down?

I post the question again. Villain could just be making a move. He could be shoving only with a legit hand. We can't know if we don't have any real idea of his playing patterns. I think a little more information than mentioning that one time he 3-bet a hand will go a long way to deciding the value of a shove here.

[copernicus 0]

I don't have the figures at the moment, but I'm almost certain that is very wrong.

And thats because.....it is very wrong, lol. I used the big stack calling not the smaller one. You need about 88+,AJs+,AJo+ to repush PF. However KQ is not a repush. The reason is that he's only calling a repush with a tight range and you need > 50% equity (per ICM)against his calling range and KQ doesnt give you that.However the difference between calling PF and folding the flop vs. folding PF is only about 2% of the prize pool, so calling is a no brainer, even if youre only looking for a miracle flop. Now you hit TPGK. What can he push with out of his PF calling range and still give you > 50% hot and cold equity to the river? Youre probably ahead or behind by about the same odds to the river, so it boils down to whether 50% of his pushing hands beat you.

[SwolyswoND 1]

MovingIn: No, none of these shoves were called down. Since my read on him is that he plays ABC - that is, bets when he has a hand and checks or folds when he doesn't, my read is generally that he's not making a move. Also, he wasn't making these shoves often...it just seemed to be his only play when he had a hand of any strength.

And thats because.....it is very wrong, lol. I used the big stack calling not the smaller one. You need about 88+,AJs+,AJo+ to repush PF. However KQ is not a repush. The reason is that he's only calling a repush with a tight range and you need > 50% equity (per ICM)against his calling range and KQ doesnt give you that.However the difference between calling PF and folding the flop vs. folding PF is only about 2% of the prize pool, so calling is a no brainer, even if youre only looking for a miracle flop. Now you hit TPGK. What can he push with out of his PF calling range and still give you > 50% hot and cold equity to the river? Youre probably ahead or behind by about the same odds to the river, so it boils down to whether 50% of his pushing hands beat you.

Personally, when I see a ABC shortstacked player flat from OOP, I weight his range to small-medium pairs, Ace-medium, or two broadway cards. We absolutely crush that range here. A competent player might flat with TT+, but thats not my read here, plus we actually are good against that range too. (QQ and KK are less likely as we have one of each, and the only one we are a huge dog to, QQ, is the least likely as he'd have to have the two case queens) That leaves six combinations of TT and JJ, two combos of QQ, 3 combos of KK and 6 combos of AA. We actually lead this range here too.Speaking of ranges, what range do you give villain here when he shoves? The range I considered in the moment was 44+, air, Q9-QK, TJ.

[copernicus 0]

MovingIn: No, none of these shoves were called down. Since my read on him is that he plays ABC - that is, bets when he has a hand and checks or folds when he doesn't, my read is generally that he's not making a move. Also, he wasn't making these shoves often...it just seemed to be his only play when he had a hand of any strength.Personally, when I see a ABC shortstacked player flat from OOP, I weight his range to small-medium pairs, Ace-medium, or two broadway cards. We absolutely crush that range here. A competent player might flat with TT+, but thats not my read here, plus we actually are good against that range too. (QQ and KK are less likely as we have one of each, and the only one we are a huge dog to, QQ, is the least likely as he'd have to have the two case queens) That leaves six combinations of TT and JJ, two combos of QQ, 3 combos of KK and 6 combos of AA. We actually lead this range here too.Speaking of ranges, what range do you give villain here when he shoves? The range I considered in the moment was 44+, air, Q9-QK, TJ.

HU you cant eliminate big pairs from his range in a $100. youve already said hes a nit, and hes not playing garbage. A min+raise folds out your absolute garbage so he can be much more comfortable with an overpair on a dry flop. I would expand your range to any pair, and you no longer crush the range, youre a small dog. Once he pushes you can eliminate any pair up to JJ. No one competent is pushing into an overcards with 2 outs when a 1/2 pot + lead could do the job, especially with a two tone board (unless he has two diamonds of course). You should also be able to eliminate any of the broadways that dont at least give him a pair of Qs. Youre a narrow favorite over the push, and on the bubble its a very borderline call. If youre going to call a push here you should almost certainly have pushed pf, because your hand + FE there crushes your hand equity here.

[SwolyswoND 1]

HU you cant eliminate big pairs from his range in a $100. youve already said hes a nit, and hes not playing garbage. A min+raise folds out your absolute garbage so he can be much more comfortable with an overpair on a dry flop. I would expand your range to any pair, and you no longer crush the range, youre a small dog. Once he pushes you can eliminate any pair up to JJ. No one competent is pushing into an overcards with 2 outs when a 1/2 pot + lead could do the job, especially with a two tone board (unless he has two diamonds of course). You should also be able to eliminate any of the broadways that dont at least give him a pair of Qs. Youre a narrow favorite over the push, and on the bubble its a very borderline call. If youre going to call a push here you should almost certainly have pushed pf, because your hand + FE there crushes your hand equity here.

Copernicus, I don't follow the opening lines of your post here. "A min+raise folds out your garbage..." I was the PF raiser, and he didn't reraise, so I dont understand how any part of my range is "folded out" to make him more comfortable with an overpair to the dry flop. I agree that normally I can't eliminate a big pair calling there in a $100, but this player my read was that he didn't trap or slowplay, that's why I had eliminated it. I also don't understand how expanding the range from 44+ to any pair takes me from a huge favorite to a slight dog? How does 22 or 33 help villain? I still only trail 44, 99, QQ(unlikely), KK(slightly unlikely), AA, Q9, KQ.

[copernicus 0]

Copernicus, I don't follow the opening lines of your post here. "A min+raise folds out your garbage..." I was the PF raiser, and he didn't reraise, so I dont understand how any part of my range is "folded out" to make him more comfortable with an overpair to the dry flop. I agree that normally I can't eliminate a big pair calling there in a $100, but this player my read was that he didn't trap or slowplay, that's why I had eliminated it. I also don't understand how expanding the range from 44+ to any pair takes me from a huge favorite to a slight dog? How does 22 or 33 help villain? I still only trail 44, 99, QQ(unlikely), KK(slightly unlikely), AA, Q9, KQ.

My wording was atrocious, it was meant as a general "your" (like "your run of the mill blah blah blah), not as "heros"...ie your minraise folds out his garbage hands.When I said "any pair" I was talking about this : "I weight his range to small-medium pairs, Ace-medium, or two broadway cards. We absolutely crush that range here." Add large pairs to that and you dont crush that range any longer.

[SwolyswoND 1]

My wording was atrocious, it was meant as a general "your" (like "your run of the mill blah blah blah), not as "heros"...ie your minraise folds out his garbage hands.When I said "any pair" I was talking about this : "I weight his range to small-medium pairs, Ace-medium, or two broadway cards. We absolutely crush that range here." Add large pairs to that and you dont crush that range any longer.

Understood, I'm clear now. We got some pretty good discussion on this one. Villain showed up here with . Certainly not in the realm of what I was thinking - what do we think of villain's line with that hand?

[copernicus 0]

Understood, I'm clear now. We got some pretty good discussion on this one. Villain showed up here with . Certainly not in the realm of what I was thinking - what do we think of villain's line with that hand?

I would play it the same. If he raises hes pot committed and theres no reason to get it all in PF with these stacks, and flatting has good deceptive value. When that flop comes his choices are to push or crai. Since you raised the crai looks tempting, but if you bet theres no longer much if any FE, so it only has the draw value. Thats still quite strong but <EV than adding the FE.Edit: Note that if you knew his two cards, calling is barely +EV despite the fact that your a favorite to win the hand. Your equity for a fold is 35.8% of the prize pool, your equity for a call is 38.5% of the prize pool.

[Mercury69 3]

I think I call against what seems to be a flush draw/ possible OESD with a bdfd