Non-showdown Pots

[Citizen Erased 0]

Hey, guys. Happy September!So I suck in non-showdown pots. I'm not bad in them, I'm just downright awful. Here's the graphs from my last three months:So yeah, it's a pretty big leak...I've read around, and I've looked around, and I've asked around, but I still suck! I figured that by putting a topic out there on the matter I'll end up with a collection of posts that I can easily refer to and give feedback.One question is, are non-showdown pots an aspect where we should look to maximise our profits, or simply minimise our losses? Does this vary on the poker game you play (as we all play different in one aspect or another)? I could go on, and happily would, but I don't want to make this all about my shortcomings, and think a general response to the matter would help more readers. I can happily elaborate on what advice I'm seeking, though. Just ask :)As always, any help is greatly appreciated.Many thanks.Zach.

[bdc30 0]

It's a function of your overall game style, usually not being aggressive enough on later streets. If you posted your full pokertracker stats (main page AND positional stats) we could probably give you better answers.

[Sheiky 0]

What's the rate your losing in non SD pots? The graph makes it look like 8-9BB/100, it helps to reference how much you're losing in comparison to the 'standard' Like Brent said, you're probably a bit weak-tight and not playing aggro enough on later streets. However, just betting more on the turn and river isn't really going to solve your problems. Not betting enough and losing a tone in non SD pots it's probably an indication that other areas of your game are lacking, like you might not be that good a hand reader so you don't know when to bluff as effectively or value bet as thing, or you're maybe mis-aplying some general concepts that leads you to not playing correctly in certain spots. Screenshots of your general and positiong stats would really help.Alternatively, talk to Simo

[psujohn 0]

The problem is that nonSD stats can be horrid for two very different reasons:- it could be that you're not playing aggressive enough and getting post flop folds or- it could be that you're playing too aggressive and bluffing but being forced to give upYour agg factor by street would be a good place to start. Then try looking at hands where you flop a draw - flush draw, oesd and see how you perform in those. Then look at hands where you flop a relatively weak made hand - TPWK, 2nd pair, etc and see how you're performing in those. Also look at your WTSD and W$SD and see how they compare to other winning players at your levels.Losing in non SD pots isn't necessarily bad - I think if you're winning in non SD pots it could be a sign that you're playing too agg and not getting value out of your hands. But you really shouldn't be losing as much as you appear to be losing in non SD pots.

[Giggidy 0]

The problem is that nonSD stats can be horrid for two very different reasons:- it could be that you're not playing aggressive enough and getting post flop folds or- it could be that you're not playing aggressive enough and getting post flop folds

FYP

[Citizen Erased 0]

As requested:I also found these particularly alarming when I was filtering on PEV:and most notably:

[antistuff 0]

im gonna guess you're playing well in the big pots and bad in the small ones.

[MovingIn 0]

Maybe you're letting yourself get bluffed a lot.

[Citizen Erased 0]

Any constructive criticism or advice... anyone?

[regionx8 0]

Any constructive criticism or advice... anyone?

Just my .02, I'm definitely no expert and i may be completely off on this but you W$WSF is over 50% from button and positions 1,2 and 3. This leads me to belive that your pushing too hard when someone has something and investing too much when you'll have to fold to any resistance. I don't know if you 2 or 3 barrel and fold, invest too much in draws and fold the river. Could be you cbet or bluff too much in multi way pots. Your went to showdown is low so you're picking up a lot of pots but by doing so may invest too much too often trying to push someone off their hand. Like i said im no expert and i'm not sure any of these things are true. If some of these are true then its a good place to start looking.. Also would like to see your aggression by streetTry this thread http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthre...t=stat+analysis

[simo_8ball 1]

You play small pots very badly, and you need to learn how to play postflop poker. You need to win more pots.Oh, and you really need to be opening more hands on the button. I raise more hands UTG than you do on the button (although I think I should probably tighten up a touch).In <5BB pots I'm at 5.8BB/100.In <30BB pots I'm at 4BB/100 (all from non showdown pots) so basically the opposite of yours.My results are going to be different to most though (I'm very LAG postflop, which isn't always a good thing). Most players should aim to be ~breakeven at in non SD pots.Basic questions (just want rough answers - often, rarely, etc):How often do you fire a second barrel on the turn?How often do you bluffraise c/bets?How often do you fire with a draw on the turn compared to how often you take a free card?How often do you check behind on the turn and call the river compared to betting turn and checking behind on the river?

[Citizen Erased 0]

would like to see your aggression by street

Flop: 4.68Turn: 3.56River: 2.78

You play small pots very badly, and you need to learn how to play postflop poker. You need to win more pots.Basic questions (just want rough answers - often, rarely, etc):1) How often do you fire a second barrel on the turn?2) How often do you bluffraise c/bets?3) How often do you fire with a draw on the turn compared to how often you take a free card?4) How often do you check behind on the turn and call the river compared to betting turn and checking behind on the river?

I've always appreciated candid criticism. Thanks (no sw)1) According to PT3, I fire twice 30% of the time at $25, and fired twice 47% at $10. Bear in mind there is a 35,000 hand discrepency between the two, with the latter being way ahead :)2) Very rarely. PT3 has me raising Cbets on average 17% of the time, of which I'd expect little to be bluffs3) About 50/50, depending on draw. If I'm OOP, I'll more like fire twice, and vice-versa4) About 65-35% in favour of checking behind and calling. This is assuming we have a hand we want to get to showdown relatively cheap.Thanks, guys, I really do appreciate this.

[Deftones150 0]

I thought I'd post for comparison my stats since I'm playing the same stakes and winning at the moment.Here is the $5NL graph and then $10NL graph.My Aggression by street is:4.152.430.97I don't know if it will help at all but maybe there is something in there that will.

[simo_8ball 1]

I've always appreciated candid criticism. Thanks (no sw)

Meh, playing small pots is tough, but at the moment you're losing a lot of money unnecessarily.

1) According to PT3, I fire twice 30% of the time at $25, and fired twice 47% at $10. Bear in mind there is a 35,000 hand discrepency between the two, with the latter being way ahead :)2) Very rarely. PT3 has me raising Cbets on average 17% of the time, of which I'd expect little to be bluffs3) About 50/50, depending on draw. If I'm OOP, I'll more like fire twice, and vice-versaThanks, guys, I really do appreciate this.

1) That's probably quite low. I'm on my laptop so I don't have my stats.2) That's a leak. You should be floating and bluffraising at least some % of the time. For example, TAG CO opens, you call from the button with J9s. Flop comes 367r and he bets 2/3 pot, which he will do with a massive % of his range. You can raise there and win the pot a very good % of the time. He will fold AK-A8, KQ, QJ, JT, etc. He might fold 44/55, he might fold A6. If he calls, you could easily have 6 outs, plus you could turn an 8 and win with another bet or turn a flush draw or something. If the turn is an ace you could fire again. FWIW that's why position is so great.3) Do you ever bluffraise the river after checking back with a draw?

4) About 65-35% in favour of checking behind and calling. This is assuming we have a hand we want to get to showdown relatively cheap.

4) "want to get to showdown relatively cheap" - stop trying to get to showdown. This is a big problem, and a horrible phrase. If you're paying off on the river, bet the turn instead. Please post some examples where you've taken this line (post a series of them in NL strat cut off on your turn decision). I think this could definitely be a root cause.

[Deftones150 0]

From a more basic thinkers view I noticed there is a big seperation in your VPiP and PFR in the blinds and that is where I see all the big red numbers. I think that if you are gonna be playing from the blinds you need to be tightening your range a tad and 3-betting more to take control of the hand. IME calling to much from the blinds gets you in too many weird spots and costs a lot of money. I noticed once I did that my NSDP stayed relatively level and im just about even now in NSDP over my 17k hands.

[Citizen Erased 0]

Simo,thanks for the advice. The best way I can try and put use to it is in the tables, so that's what I'm gonna do. I'll try to gradually work in your advice, and will keep this thread updated with results and any questions that arise.

If you're paying off on the river, bet the turn instead. Please post some examples where you've taken this line (post a series of them in NL strat cut off on your turn decision). I think this could definitely be a root cause.

Do you mean post when I bet the turn, or when I pay off the river? I assume it's the former.I will bluff missed draws on the river if I can realistically represent the card that comes. eg. I will bluff a straight if my flush missed, etc.If there's any other information you'd like, please just ask.

From a more basic thinkers view I noticed there is a big seperation in your VPiP and PFR in the blinds and that is where I see all the big red numbers. I think that if you are gonna be playing from the blinds you need to be tightening your range a tad and 3-betting more to take control of the hand. IME calling to much from the blinds gets you in too many weird spots and costs a lot of money. I noticed once I did that my NSDP stayed relatively level and im just about even now in NSDP over my 17k hands.

3betting OOP PF is not good for someone as passive post-flop as me.I'm working on it, though

[simo_8ball 1]

Do you mean post when I bet the turn, or when I pay off the river? I assume it's the former.

I mean in the form "villain checks to me, what do I do here on the turn?"Examples:Dealt to HERO [8s 9s]UTG - Calls $1HERO - Raises $4.5 to $4.50SB - FoldsBB - FoldsUTG - Calls $3.5*** FLOP *** [8c 7h 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [8c 7h 3h] [5d]UTG - ChecksHERO???Betting here is clearly correct imo. Villain could have any number of flush draws, straight draws, hands like 67, A3, etc. I think betting here is good with a hand like 66 is good as well because you do beat a lot of different hands in his range.Dealt to HERO [8c Qc]UTG - FoldsHERO - Raises $3.5 to $3.50SB - Calls $3BB - Folds*** FLOP *** [Qs 5c 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [Qs 5c 3h] [5d]UTG - ChecksHERO???Checking here is a good option. Villain either has a better queen which he isn't folding, he could have a 5 which he isn't folding, or he could have something like A3, 34, 66-88 or maybe even A9 or something which he probably will fold. Checking behind and then value betting the river is a lot better.

I will bluff missed draws on the river if I can realistically represent the card that comes. eg. I will bluff a straight if my flush missed, etc.

Dealt to HERO [Qh Jh]UTG - Calls $1HERO - Raises $4.5 to $4.50SB - FoldsBB - FoldsUTG - Calls $3.5*** FLOP *** [8c 7h 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [8c 7h 3h] [4d]UTG - ChecksHERO - Checks*** RIVER *** [8c 7h 3h 4d] [Ks]UTG - Bets $14HERO???How often would you raise here given full stacks? I think this is a very good place to make a raise to $38ish and win the pot. He won't usually call with an 8 or a 7, and he could easily have some busted draws.

[Citizen Erased 0]

I mean in the form "villain checks to me, what do I do here on the turn?"Examples:Dealt to HERO [8s 9s]UTG - Calls $1HERO - Raises $4.5 to $4.50SB - FoldsBB - FoldsUTG - Calls $3.5*** FLOP *** [8c 7h 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [8c 7h 3h] [5d]UTG - ChecksHERO???Betting here is clearly correct imo. Villain could have any number of flush draws, straight draws, hands like 67, A3, etc. I think betting here is good with a hand like 66 is good as well because you do beat a lot of different hands in his range.

I would generally pot this turn, just to ensure he doesn't have the right price. Do we have to fold if he CRAI, though?

Dealt to HERO [8c Qc]UTG - FoldsHERO - Raises $3.5 to $3.50SB - Calls $3BB - Folds*** FLOP *** [Qs 5c 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [Qs 5c 3h] [5d]UTG - ChecksHERO???Checking here is a good option. Villain either has a better queen which he isn't folding, he could have a 5 which he isn't folding, or he could have something like A3, 34, 66-88 or maybe even A9 or something which he probably will fold. Checking behind and then value betting the river is a lot better.

I agree with your reasoning here, but I wouldn't even raise Q8cc here PF. Is that too tight? The reason I give myself a relatively strict starting hand selection is to compensate for my weakness post-flop

Dealt to HERO [Qh Jh]UTG - Calls $1HERO - Raises $4.5 to $4.50SB - FoldsBB - FoldsUTG - Calls $3.5*** FLOP *** [8c 7h 3h]UTG - ChecksHERO - Bets $7UTG - Calls $7*** TURN *** [8c 7h 3h] [4d]UTG - ChecksHERO - Checks*** RIVER *** [8c 7h 3h 4d] [Ks]UTG - Bets $14HERO???How often would you raise here given full stacks? I think this is a very good place to make a raise to $38ish and win the pot. He won't usually call with an 8 or a 7, and he could easily have some busted draws.

Honestly, I would VERY rarely raise here, if ever. I would expect my opponent to call with a 7 or 8. I'd think they could have a King. Is this thinking way too negative? I set myself the goal to stop giving my opponents credit for things that just don't add up. I'm yet to fully act upon it, but I feel it should work, but I also recognise it is an approach that can bear a lot of variance and cost.Generally, do I need to be eliminating this negative mindset? I realise I need to do this without becoming too complacent. There's a fine line between making good plays and being naive.

[simo_8ball 1]

I think Q8s is a fairly standard open from the button. As I say, I open more hands UTG than you do on the button if that says something about how tight your ranges are.Tell you what, my AIM/MSN are in my profile. If you want, we can set up a couple of rail/sweat sessions.

[Deftones150 0]

It is possible you give your opponents too much credit in certain spots. I would definately take simo up on his offer and you might STILL be surprised what some people turn over. After 6 years I'm still amazed the crap people try to pull.

[sennin 0]

Im with ya man, Im absolutely brutal in nonshowdown pots lol. Hopefully I can fix it somewhat with the info in here

[ROBBBIGG 0]

at the micros a weak tight strat is pretty effective, so that makes sense (wait for them to give you their money)you can go nuts on people and call down light and bluff shove and your nonshowdown winnings will go way up, but it's likely your total winnings will go way downimo it really comes down to getting a ton of experience and knowing when you can call down light or bluff profitably

[gfdsa146 0]

at the micros a weak tight strat is pretty effective, so that makes sense (wait for them to give you their money)you can go nuts on people and call down light and bluff shove and your nonshowdown winnings will go way up, but it's likely your total winnings will go way downimo it really comes down to getting a ton of experience and knowing when you can call down light or bluff profitably

Probably one of the most balla post i've ever read. ROBBBIGG is a BALLA, SHOT CALLA!!