Rivered Flush, Villain Check Shoves

[IQCrash 1]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 ($100.00)Hero (MP2) ($199.50)CO ($101.50)Button ($98.50)SB ($109.70)BB ($190.05)UTG ($124.70)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K Q 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.00, 3 folds, BB calls $3.00Flop: ($8.50) 8 6 8 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksTurn: ($8.50) 2 (2 players)BB bets $6.00, Hero calls $6.00 River: ($20.50) J (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $14.00, BB raises to $180.05 (All-In), Hero ?Have a long history with villain. He's nitty and I've gotten him off better hands in the past.In turn, he's started playing back at me recently. Earlier at the same table I tried to get him off AK, which didn't work, but helped get my AA paid off a rotation or two later.Easy fold?

[SCS 0]

I doubt this is the T high flush. I think this is a boat more than anything, maybe A high flush.If he happens to be bluffing than good for him, but I don't think we can call here.

[Moneyball16 0]

Yeah I agree with SCS.

[Snamuh 0]

Fold imo. This is almost always a full house.

[NoBBiR 0]

Fold imo. This is almost always a full house.

I might call real time because, frankly, ISAP, but I agree with above. You're getting Zeebo'd if the guy has any idea what he is doing.

[IQCrash 1]

I'm in agreement with all of you, of course, as I did fold.But I always seem to get caught up in the fact that I don't think I could ever check there with a monster, because too often your opponent will just check behind and you'll lose so much value. Anyway, I figured it was an easy fold, but with the history with the villain and the fact that my brain can't wrap around the idea of checking with a monster on the river, I had to ask.

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm in agreement with all of you, of course, as I did fold.But I always seem to get caught up in the fact that I don't think I could ever check there with a monster, because too often your opponent will just check behind and you'll lose so much value. Anyway, I figured it was an easy fold, but with the history with the villain and the fact that my brain can't wrap around the idea of checking with a monster on the river, I had to ask.

I pretty much make it a rule that, without a read, if someone crai's me on the river in something other than HU, I'm folding most everything but the mortal nuts. Even when it doesn't make sense to check the river with the nuts, people do weird ****ing shit, and crai on the river are almost never bluffs.Unless you're playing Simo apparently.

[Moneyball16 0]

I'm in agreement with all of you, of course, as I did fold.But I always seem to get caught up in the fact that I don't think I could ever check there with a monster, because too often your opponent will just check behind and you'll lose so much value. Anyway, I figured it was an easy fold, but with the history with the villain and the fact that my brain can't wrap around the idea of checking with a monster on the river, I had to ask.

I dont think its that unlikely that villain put you on a heart flush here, because of the way you played the flop and turn. So maybe he was pretty sure you were gonna bet the river, but then again if he puts you on a rivered flush and he has a full house is it better for him to c/r or to lead?I c/r the river with monster quite a bit more than most. Mostly in spots where villains range is very defined, like where im so sure he had a missed draw or when Im so sure that he has a decent made hand.

[IQCrash 1]

I dont think its that unlikely that villain put you on a heart flush here, because of the way you played the flop and turn. So maybe he was pretty sure you were gonna bet the river, but then again if he puts you on a rivered flush and he has a full house is it better for him to c/r or to lead?I c/r the river with monster quite a bit more than most. Mostly in spots where villains range is very defined, like where im so sure he had a missed draw or when Im so sure that he has a decent made hand.

Wouldn't you c/r for value, tho? Or do you make those gross overbets as well?I don't think I'd even consider calling with the Ace high flush there, you know?Would any competent player ever call there with anything but a boat?

[Moneyball16 0]

Yeah I wouldnt push if I was to c/r the river there.Not sure if I would call with A high flush or not. Ive made much worse calls

[NoBBiR 0]

Nut flush might be a bit more difficult, but again, if your opponent knows what he is doing (you have history, so I assume you know whether he is stupid or is a thinking/winning player) I really wouldn't feel too comfortable calling for a 400bb pot on a paired board when the guy c/shoves the river.

[Sheiky 0]

I pretty much make it a rule that, without a read, if someone crai's me on the river in something other than HU, I'm folding most everything but the mortal nuts. Even when it doesn't make sense to check the river with the nuts, people do weird ****ing shit, and crai on the river are almost never bluffs.Unless you're playing Simo apparently.

***** Hand History for Game 7751368678 *****$25.00 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 22, 08:19:27 2008Table Melissa (6 max) (Real Money)Seat 3 is the buttonSeat 1: Simo123 ( $26.80 )Seat 2: The FalWheel ( $8.40 )Seat 3: RichardMcBeef90 ( $39.45 )Seat 4: clumber ( $24.40 )Seat 5: BadtheBeater ( $38.85 )Seat 6: mikeypoker007 ( $43.05 )clumber posts the small blind [$0.10].BadtheBeater posts the big blind [$0.25].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [ Ac Qd ]mikeypoker007 raises [$0.85]Simo123 calls [$0.85]The FalWheel foldsRichardMcBeef90 calls [$0.85]clumber foldsBadtheBeater folds** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 8c, 5s ]mikeypoker007 checksSimo123 bets [$2.00]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$2.00]mikeypoker007 folds** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]Simo123 bets [$4.25]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$4.25]** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]Simo123 checksRichardMcBeef90 bets [$5.75]Simo123 raises [$19.70]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$13.95]Simo123 shows [7d 9d ]RichardMcBeef90 shows [Ac Qd ]RichardMcBeef90 wins $52.10 from main pot:)

[NoBBiR 0]

***** Hand History for Game 7751368678 *****$25.00 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 22, 08:19:27 2008Table Melissa (6 max) (Real Money)Seat 3 is the buttonSeat 1: Simo123 ( $26.80 )Seat 2: The FalWheel ( $8.40 )Seat 3: RichardMcBeef90 ( $39.45 )Seat 4: clumber ( $24.40 )Seat 5: BadtheBeater ( $38.85 )Seat 6: mikeypoker007 ( $43.05 )clumber posts the small blind [$0.10].BadtheBeater posts the big blind [$0.25].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to RichardMcBeef90 [ Ac Qd ]mikeypoker007 raises [$0.85]Simo123 calls [$0.85]The FalWheel foldsRichardMcBeef90 calls [$0.85]clumber foldsBadtheBeater folds** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 8c, 5s ]mikeypoker007 checksSimo123 bets [$2.00]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$2.00]mikeypoker007 folds** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]Simo123 bets [$4.25]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$4.25]** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]Simo123 checksRichardMcBeef90 bets [$5.75]Simo123 raises [$19.70]RichardMcBeef90 calls [$13.95]Simo123 shows [7d 9d ]RichardMcBeef90 shows [Ac Qd ]RichardMcBeef90 wins $52.10 from main pot:)

Obv.

[AcesUp46 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 ($100.00)Hero (MP2) ($199.50)CO ($101.50)Button ($98.50)SB ($109.70)BB ($190.05)UTG ($124.70)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K Q 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.00, 3 folds, BB calls $3.00Flop: ($8.50) 8 6 8 (2 players)BB checks, Hero checksTurn: ($8.50) 2 (2 players)BB bets $6.00, Hero calls $6.00 River: ($20.50) J (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets $14.00, BB raises to $180.05 (All-In), Hero ?Have a long history with villain. He's nitty and I've gotten him off better hands in the past.In turn, he's started playing back at me recently. Earlier at the same table I tried to get him off AK, which didn't work, but helped get my AA paid off a rotation or two later.Easy fold?

IQ, who is the Villain?

[IQCrash 1]

IQ, who is the Villain?

I'm pretty sure I'm not spelling it right, but you should be able to figure it out - vinniepooh.

[AcesUp46 0]

I'm pretty sure I'm not spelling it right, but you should be able to figure it out - vinniepooh.

Jeez...for vinniepooh, you should be turbo-folding faster than Usain Bolt. Like biggest nit ever. His range of hands for check-shoving 200BB deep is like quad 8's or Jacks full. He does this with 6's full like never.

[IQCrash 1]

Jeez...for vinniepooh, you should be turbo-folding faster than Usain Bolt. Like biggest nit ever. His range of hands for check-shoving 200BB deep is like quad 8's or Jacks full. He does this with 6's full like never.

That's just what confuses me, tho.He could have easily gotten another $30-$40 from me. Where's the value in that river shove? Like I said above, I don't think I'm ever calling there with the nut flush, let alone the K high flush. How often do you think vinnie shows up with air here? Ever? He and I had been going at it for a couple days when I posted this (haven't seen him around this weekend) and he caught on to the fact that I was 3 and 4 betting him light and making plays for his pots when it was likely he whiffed. Dunno, I know it's an easy fold, but the loss of value kills me - I just can't see doing that shove. Even if he specifically put me on the flush, that shove seems like it's hugely -EV, knowing an opponent would pay off a small raise. Frankly, leading into me there would have probably been better as I'm pretty certain I'd have raised him.Maybe he thought I'd call, I guess. I have been known to occasionally make ridiculous calldowns.

[AcesUp46 0]

That's just what confuses me, tho.He could have easily gotten another $30-$40 from me. Where's the value in that river shove? Like I said above, I don't think I'm ever calling there with the nut flush, let alone the K high flush. How often do you think vinnie shows up with air here? Ever? He and I had been going at it for a couple days when I posted this (haven't seen him around this weekend) and he caught on to the fact that I was 3 and 4 betting him light and making plays for his pots when it was likely he whiffed. Dunno, I know it's an easy fold, but the loss of value kills me - I just can't see doing that shove. Even if he specifically put me on the flush, that shove seems like it's hugely -EV, knowing an opponent would pay off a small raise. Frankly, leading into me there would have probably been better as I'm pretty certain I'd have raised him.Maybe he thought I'd call, I guess. I have been known to occasionally make ridiculous calldowns.

He's a multitabling reg (16-20 tables or so). Regs like these make plays early in the hand where it's cheaper. Of course, he may show up with air with his river check/shove with a deep stack, but I think it's a really low percentage of the time, not profitable enough to call.

[SCS 0]

A 20 table playing nit's idea of playing back at you is 3 betting queens on the button to your cutoff open.

[thehighnotes 0]

Obv.

In what way is it obvious??Because Simon raised 2 times then check-raises the third? Hmm.. there seems no need to check-raise indeed because the winner kept calling him anyway, is this the reason? Because being quite new myself, i recognize something in Simon's play, though this was before i started doing actual research on poker .

[NoBBiR 0]

In what way is it obvious??Because Simon raised 2 times then check-raises the third? Hmm.. there seems no need to check-raise indeed because the winner kept calling him anyway, is this the reason? Because being quite new myself, i recognize something in Simon's play, though this was before i started doing actual research on poker .

I was being sarcastic, but at the same time, not. Simo has posted a lot of hands in BAW and other places of c/r bluffing rivers and turns