middle pair against pf raiser

[obs 0]

Villain is a weak LPP. Yes, the UTG call is a little too loose but the table was pretty passive.Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is UTG with 8:diamond:, 7:diamond:. Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.Flop: (5.33 SB) 5:club:, 7:spade:, 9:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (4.66 BB) 9:diamond: (2 players)Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.River: (6.66 BB) A:spade: (2 players)Hero bets

[wrto4556 0]

fold preflop

[obs 0]

Yea, I know, but the table was full of weak tighties and figured I would give it a shot. Seems pretty common @ 3/6. Been much harder to find decent games, and by decent I mean a table VPIP > 25%.

[Absolute 0]

fold preflop

[dms26 3]

fold preflop

Couldn't have said it any better.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I disagree with ALWAYS folding suited connectors pre-flop UTG, as I have sat down at many a table where almost every hand there are 3 or more limpers (Pokertracker works wonders).That being said, your check-raise is great here on the flop (I hardly ever check-raise, but this is exactly where I would most times).Continuation bet the turn is great.River bet is good also. If he called you down all the way to the river with ace X, al the power to him). :wink:

[Petoria 0]

Does anyone agree that he probably has JJ? I think you're just giving away another bet on the river. If he actually had an Ax he might be raising. I think a check/call is better. JJ is not getting out of the pot at this point. You arent value betting the river with a pair of 7s. Only hands that beat you are calling. I really dislike the river bet, you're just chip-spewing.o yeah and fold preflop.

[BeanGW 0]

I disagree with ALWAYS folding suited connectors pre-flop UTG, as I have sat down at many a table where almost every hand there are 3 or more limpers (Pokertracker works wonders).

If he said it was full of loose limpers I'd say it was OK... but at table of "tight weakies" there is no question in my mind that it's a preflop fold. Tight/weak just screams to me that there are not usually 3 or more limpers.

[Rocketwadster 0]

If he said it was full of loose limpers I'd say it was OK... but at table of "tight weakies" there is no question in my mind that it's a preflop fold. Tight/weak just screams to me that there are not usually 3 or more limpers.i agree, but many people indicated to fold pre-flop, without saying why (many people on the forum are here to learn. so why not give a little more info as to why it is a fold in that situation). :wink:

[obs 0]

I bet the river with the intention of folding to a raise. The villain is very weak. Yes, at the river I figure this is a strong chance I am behind. The question is, are you going to showdown with this hand if you check and he bets? I was. I very much doubt I will induce a bluff from a worse hand with all the strength I have shown thus far which makes check/call seem wrong to me. I also doubt he would bluff a river raise which means me folding to a raise isn't that bad and would cost the same as a check/call. The other option is check/fold which I think is just wrong.And yes, I know the UTG limp was too loose.

[BeanGW 0]

I bet the river with the intention of folding to a raise. The villain is very weak. Yes, at the river I figure this is a strong chance I am behind. The question is, are you going to showdown with this hand if you check and he bets? I was. I very much doubt I will induce a bluff from a worse hand with all the strength I have shown thus far which makes check/call seem wrong to me. I also doubt he would bluff a river raise which means me folding to a raise isn't that bad and would cost the same as a check/call. The other option is check/fold which I think is just wrong.And yes, I know the UTG limp was too loose.

I hate to say it man, but this was just a poorly played hand on your part. Check-raising that flop??? huh? A check raise should be done primarily for the purpose of committing a player who you know will bet behind you to a pot in which you are confident you will win. It's also good to do it when you can actually afford to have the villain check behind you. You had neither of those circumstances going for you.Once he called your check raise... I guess you feel that you need to bet into him after that to disguise your hand, and I guess since you're already in there, that's OK.If I hadn't folded preflop, I would have bet into the raiser post-flop, and dropped it if he raised me. When I play suited connectors I am playing for the nutz straight 1st, the flush 2nd (since you won't have the nutz flush), and for two pair 3rd. You had none of the above and should have saved yourself some bets... especially to a tight/weak player who has come out firing this hand.'nuff said.

[cdddc75 0]

i agree, but many people indicated to fold pre-flop, without saying why (many people on the forum are here to learn. so why not give a little more info as to why it is a fold in that situation). :wink:

87s UTG sucks in almost every circumstance. Against a very loose/passive table, it sort of sucks. Even the OP admitted it was too loose.It really sucks when a flop like this hits it.Still wondering why it's an easy preflop fold?

[cdddc75 0]

obs, what does an LPP possibly raise preflop with that you beat here?

[Rocketwadster 0]

Still wondering why it's an easy preflop fold?I was never wondering...I simply advised that posters should give some explanation as to why they would do certain things at certain times, as opposed to jsut saying "fold pre-flop". My first post to this topic said that I don't always think that the pre-flop fold here is correct, and I gave an example of why I thought that way. I never said I agreed with calling here though. :wink:

[cdddc75 0]

I was never wondering...I simply advised that posters should give some explanation as to why they would do certain things at certain times, as opposed to jsut saying "fold pre-flop". My first post to this topic said that I don't always think that the pre-flop fold here is correct, and I gave an example of why I thought that way. I never said I agreed with calling here though. :wink:

Sometimes, short and succinct advice is best. Having 20 people post nothing but "fold preflop" is a simple way of reinforcing how much the preflop call sucks.

[dms26 3]

Still wondering why it's an easy preflop fold?

I was never wondering...I simply advised that posters should give some explanation as to why they would do certain things at certain times' date=' as opposed to jsut saying "fold pre-flop". My first post to this topic said that I don't always think that the pre-flop fold here is correct, and I gave an example of why I thought that way. I never said I agreed with calling here though. :wink:[/quote']I still think that's a fold every time UTG, even if you think 5 or 6 will limp behind you and nobody will raise(which is a stretch), you're still out of position with an 8 high.I love playing suited connectors when I can, but UTG it's a fold.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I bet the river with the intention of folding to a raise. The villain is very weak. Yes, at the river I figure this is a strong chance I am behind. The question is, are you going to showdown with this hand if you check and he bets? I was. I very much doubt I will induce a bluff from a worse hand with all the strength I have shown thus far which makes check/call seem wrong to me. I also doubt he would bluff a river raise which means me folding to a raise isn't that bad and would cost the same as a check/call. The other option is check/fold which I think is just wrong.And yes, I know the UTG limp was too loose.

you bet the river with the intention of folding?insanitywhy bet than?check and call.I would also check the river here I dont see a hand that we can beat that will call us down.cant beat 1010,JJ,QQ,KK, any ace. what does a river bet accomplish here?terrible bet IMO(not flaming)

[Rocketwadster 0]

I still think that's a fold every time UTG, even if you think 5 or 6 will limp behind you and nobody will raise(which is a stretch), you're still out of position with an 8 high.I love playing suited connectors when I can, but UTG it's a fold.I've been on UB for a few weeks/months now, and have caught many a $0.25/0.50 table where the VP$IP number was over 40 and the pre-flop raise % was less than 3. I agree for the most part that it is a fold UTG, but definately have played on tables where it can be done. :wink:

[Puddleglum5555 0]

I still think that's a fold every time UTG' date=' even if you think 5 or 6 will limp behind you and nobody will raise(which is a stretch), you're still out of position with an 8 high.I love playing suited connectors when I can, but UTG it's a fold.[/quote']I've been on UB for a few weeks/months now, and have caught many a $0.25/0.50 table where the VP$IP number was over 40 and the pre-flop raise % was less than 3. I agree for the most part that it is a fold UTG, but definately have played on tables where it can be done. :wink:

I agreethe table flow must be perfect to limp utg with these type hands

[obs 0]

you bet the river with the intention of folding?insanitywhy bet than?check and call.I would also check the river here I dont see a hand that we can beat that will call us down.cant beat 1010,JJ,QQ,KK, any ace. what does a river bet accomplish here?terrible bet IMO(not flaming)

What does check/calling have over bet/folding on that same range of hands? At least with bet/fold I give the opponent a chance to fold TT-KK. The only two options I see on this river is check/folding or bet/folding. Check/calling seems like the worst of all 3 options given this opponent (one not prone to bluffing).

[obs 0]

I hate to say it man, but this was just a poorly played hand on your part. Check-raising that flop??? huh? A check raise should be done primarily for the purpose of committing a player who you know will bet behind you to a pot in which you are confident you will win. It's also good to do it when you can actually afford to have the villain check behind you. You had neither of those circumstances going for you.Once he called your check raise... I guess you feel that you need to bet into him after that to disguise your hand, and I guess since you're already in there, that's OK.If I hadn't folded preflop, I would have bet into the raiser post-flop, and dropped it if he raised me. When I play suited connectors I am playing for the nutz straight 1st, the flush 2nd (since you won't have the nutz flush), and for two pair 3rd. You had none of the above and should have saved yourself some bets... especially to a tight/weak player who has come out firing this hand.'nuff said.

You seem to be under the impression that I have to be behind. Also, the PF raise is loose passive passive. Just because the raiser is passive doesn't mean he has a big PP. The flop c/r and turn bet seem extremely standard. It is the PF limp (which I admit is wrong) and the river bet which are questionable imho.

[Puddleglum5555 0]

you bet the river with the intention of folding?insanitywhy bet than?check and call.I would also check the river here I dont see a hand that we can beat that will call us down.cant beat 1010,JJ,QQ,KK, any ace. what does a river bet accomplish here?terrible bet IMO(not flaming)

What does check/calling have over bet/folding on that same range of hands? At least with bet/fold I give the opponent a chance to fold TT-KK. The only two options I see on this river is check/folding or bet/folding. Check/calling seems like the worst of all 3 options given this opponent (one not prone to bluffing).

if he called the turn with 1010---KK how will he fold the river?for one more bet, he wont.bet folding is insane

[cdddc75 0]

You seem to be under the impression that I have to be behind. Also, the PF raise is loose passive passive. Just because the raiser is passive doesn't mean he has a big PP. The flop c/r and turn bet seem extremely standard. It is the PF limp (which I admit is wrong) and the river bet which are questionable imho.

I'll reiterate. What does he have that you are beating here? If you can bluff him out, so be it...