189 replies to this topic

[7s7c]

AmScray, on Monday, August 18th, 2008, 4:55 PM, said:

Rizzuto is the HOF's Mendoza Line. IMO, it should be much, much higher.

Agreed

[slink]

GeneralGeeWhiz, on Monday, August 18th, 2008, 12:03 PM, said:

Tommy John?

The tendon for sure.

[GeneralGeeWhiz]

slink, on Monday, August 18th, 2008, 8:16 PM, said:

The tendon for sure.

Look at his lifetime stats. He should def be in.

[MDXS]

Hey guys...checking in only to certainly pop out again. My thoughts:Blyleven: AbsolutelyAlomar: CertainlyRice: NoTommy John: Not quiteWills: No wayBonds: YesMcGwire: ProbablyPalmeiro: Probably not

[timwakefield]

MDXS, on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008, 8:50 PM, said:

Hey guys...checking in only to certainly pop out again. My thoughts:

Hey good to see you, however short-lived!

[Tactical Bear]

MDXS, on Tuesday, August 19th, 2008, 8:50 PM, said:

Hey guys...checking in only to certainly pop out again. My thoughts:Blyleven: AbsolutelyAlomar: CertainlyRice: NoTommy John: Not quiteWills: No wayBonds: YesMcGwire: ProbablyPalmeiro: Probably not

I agree except for McGwire. He's a yes. And I'm probably a little more bullish on Palmiero, too, but I'm willing to listen to good arguments either way. The idea that Maury Wills is a potential Hall of Famer is laughable. He's terrible. If Omar Vizquel makes the Hall of Fame I'll stab everyone not named Alan Trammell.Wang

[PMJackson21]

Tactical Bear, on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008, 3:14 PM, said:

I agree except for McGwire. He's a yes. And I'm probably a little more bullish on Palmiero, too, but I'm willing to listen to good arguments either way. The idea that Maury Wills is a potential Hall of Famer is laughable. He's terrible. If Omar Vizquel makes the Hall of Fame I'll stab everyone not named Alan Trammell.Wang

Well, I guess hanging out with Alan Trammell will be safe in a few years, because I'd say there is a 98% chance Omar gets in. If I knew I could collect whenver it happens, I'd be more then happy to give you decent odds.As much as you'd like to present Maury Wills being 'terrible' as indisputable fact, I would like to hear your reasoning. Unless you meant now (you used is, not was), which I would agree with; I doubt he would be much use to any MLB team these days. However, his value during his era is pretty easily determined. His numbers compare favorably to other HOF ss from/around his era, and that is how he should be judged in this case. I don't think anyone would argue that the HOF is all it should be (besides the HOF itself), but to borrow from hundreds of uncreative athletes, 'it is what it is'. When judging whether a player is HOF worthy, one should use the system in place and look at things how the actual voters do, not how they wish things were.That being said, I wish the HOF was 100x more exclusive then it currently is.

[7s7c]

Tactical Bear, on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008, 2:14 PM, said:

If Omar Vizquel makes the Hall of Fame I'll stab everyone not named Alan Trammell.Wang

Get out your stabbing shoes....and everytime they show how "HOF worthy" he is on baseball tonight leading up to his induction by showing a barehanded catch and throw, take a drink.

[Tactical Bear]

PMJackson21, on Wednesday, August 20th, 2008, 6:56 PM, said:

Well, I guess hanging out with Alan Trammell will be safe in a few years, because I'd say there is a 98% chance Omar gets in. If I knew I could collect whenver it happens, I'd be more then happy to give you decent odds.As much as you'd like to present Maury Wills being 'terrible' as indisputable fact, I would like to hear your reasoning. Unless you meant now (you used is, not was), which I would agree with; I doubt he would be much use to any MLB team these days. However, his value during his era is pretty easily determined. His numbers compare favorably to other HOF ss from/around his era, and that is how he should be judged in this case. I don't think anyone would argue that the HOF is all it should be (besides the HOF itself), but to borrow from hundreds of uncreative athletes, 'it is what it is'. When judging whether a player is HOF worthy, one should use the system in place and look at things how the actual voters do, not how they wish things were.That being said, I wish the HOF was 100x more exclusive then it currently is.

Well, his career OPS+ was 88. The year he won the MVP, '62, he was a league-average hitter. This is a laudable accomplishment for a shortstop, but according to Baseball Prospectus, Wills was a slightly below-average defensive shortstop this year (though I'm not sure I trust FRAA that much). He stole some bases, but he got caught alot too. He started his career very late, and only 4 times in his career was Wills league-average-or-better at the plate. His career offensive numbers are nearly identical to Ozzie Smith's, but Wills was no Ozzie in the field. I don't have to look at whether or not I think Bill Plaschke is going to write a bad, weepy article about Maury Wills that advances his Hall of Fame case. In fact, I WILL NOT do that. He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Give me a player you think he deserves to be in over (either currently in, or currently up for debate, preferably not one of those ridiculous border-line players that's in the Hall that EVERYBODY is better than), and we'll compare.Wills was a fine player, but he was nothing all that special. No way I'm letting a guy with a career OPS+ of 88 into my hall if he's not bringing something else very, very significant to the table

[PMJackson21]

Tactical Bear, on Thursday, August 21st, 2008, 9:38 AM, said:

Well, his career OPS+ was 88. The year he won the MVP, '62, he was a league-average hitter. This is a laudable accomplishment for a shortstop, but according to Baseball Prospectus, Wills was a slightly below-average defensive shortstop this year (though I'm not sure I trust FRAA that much). He stole some bases, but he got caught alot too. He started his career very late, and only 4 times in his career was Wills league-average-or-better at the plate. His career offensive numbers are nearly identical to Ozzie Smith's, but Wills was no Ozzie in the field. I don't have to look at whether or not I think Bill Plaschke is going to write a bad, weepy article about Maury Wills that advances his Hall of Fame case. In fact, I WILL NOT do that. He doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Give me a player you think he deserves to be in over (either currently in, or currently up for debate, preferably not one of those ridiculous border-line players that's in the Hall that EVERYBODY is better than), and we'll compare.Wills was a fine player, but he was nothing all that special. No way I'm letting a guy with a career OPS+ of 88 into my hall if he's not bringing something else very, very significant to the table

Ok, reasonable argument. Since you invoked Plaschke, you win. Anyone he deserves to be in over, I would probably consider a marginal at best candidate (Pee Wee Reese, Rizzuto, etc).

[slink]

Mike Mussina hall worthy?

[timwakefield]

slink, on Saturday, November 22nd, 2008, 9:47 PM, said:

Mike Mussina hall worthy?

If he manages a couple more seasons like last season he might get in (especially if he gets to 300 wins). His 3.68 lifetime ERA is not good enough though at this point. If he retires with 300+ wins though, that becomes less noticeable.

[BigDMcGee]

slink, on Saturday, November 22nd, 2008, 7:47 PM, said:

Mike Mussina hall worthy?

No

[HollywoodAFD]

slink, on Saturday, November 22nd, 2008, 8:47 PM, said:

Mike Mussina hall worthy?

Not until Pete Rose gets in

[MDXS]

Mike Mussina strikes me as completely borderline. I have him a notch below Schilling and consider Schilling just barely on the happy side of the dividing line.I think I'd give it to him since he's retiring with something left in the tank and not dragging out the inevitable to pad his stats to reach an arbitrary milestone.

[timwakefield]

Oh he retired? No chance then imo. 270 wins and a 3.68 ERA, unimpressive K and BB numbers, I don't see how he gets in.

MDXS, on Monday, November 24th, 2008, 6:46 PM, said:

I think I'd give it to him since he's retiring with something left in the tank and not dragging out the inevitable to pad his stats to reach an arbitrary milestone.

Unfortunately for him the hall is all about arbitrary milestones.

[MDXS]

timwakefield, on Monday, November 24th, 2008, 8:17 PM, said:

Oh he retired? No chance then imo. 270 wins and a 3.68 ERA, unimpressive K and BB numbers, I don't see how he gets in.

3.68 ERA vs. a league average of 4.51. 18 years and 3500 innings of a 123 ERA+ is nothing to shake a stick at. In fact, that's precisely Juan Marichal...only Mussina has 23 more wins. Granted, the shape of the career is different, Marichal's a peak guy whereas Mussina's been quite good for a long time, but in terms of total value, they're close. I don't buy the wins thing. 270 wins is more than:Jim PalmerBob FellerCarl HubbellMordecai BrownWhitey Ford...and a bunch of other Hall of Famers. Because I was curious, I looked up Hall of Fame pitchers. There are 62 by my count. 37 of them had less than 270 wins and Grimes also had 270. So, if we're judging Mussina on wins, he's in the upper half of the Hall of Fame. By ERA+, he's got 34 below him and 1 tie. Innings: 26 have less innings. Looks to me like he's an average Hall of Famer. He will look worse in comparison when Clemens*, Maddux, Martinez, Glavine, Smoltz, Johnson, etc, etc...come up for election and make it in before him, but he's still a solid choice.

[timwakefield]

Hmm fair enough, I guess you're right that he's just on the cusp. Retiring after one of his best seasons should help. But he's had FIVE seasons of 4.40+ era, and has had just one sub-3.00, or one and a half I suppose. Zero Cy Youngs could be the kicker imo.

[BigDMcGee]

timwakefield, on Tuesday, November 25th, 2008, 12:21 AM, said:

Hmm fair enough, I guess you're right that he's just on the cusp. Retiring after one of his best seasons should help. But he's had FIVE seasons of 4.40+ era, and has had just one sub-3.00, or one and a half I suppose. Zero Cy Youngs could be the kicker imo.

I think the 300 win thing is going to become less and less important in the era of 5 man rotations and what not. Pedro, for example, is going to fall far short of 300 wins, and he's like a top 5 HoF pitcher.

[timwakefield]

BigDMcGee, on Tuesday, November 25th, 2008, 2:51 AM, said:

I think the 300 win thing is going to become less and less important in the era of 5 man rotations and what not. Pedro, for example, is going to fall far short of 300 wins, and he's like a top 5 HoF pitcher.

Yeah, but Pedro's other stats are so incredibly good that it's unimportant. I mean, compare Mussina's one-and-a-half sub-3.00 ERA seasons in his career to Pedro's NINE (including a ridiculous streak of seven straight, which Greg Maddux incidentally equaled), and also including two sub-2.00 seasons (also equaled by Maddux ). I mean obviously I know you're not saying they are comparable pitchers, I'm just generally pointing out that Mussina doesn't have any outstanding statistics.