53 replies to this topic

[DanielNegreanu]

Let's try some limit hold'em for a change, whaddya say? In a nine handed ring game you pick up the A 8 in the cutoff seat and raise it up. All fold to the big blind who defends his blind. Some background on the big blind, he is also a professional player and will defend his blind liberally in this situation as he should. The flop comes down Qc 8s 6h. Your opponent check raises you on the flop and for this example you decide to call. The turn card comes the 2c and your opponent bets out. Some more background: You know that your opponent doesn't have to have a pair of queens or better to play his hand this way. He could have a draw, a pair of eights, a pair of siixes, or even a hand like 99. Since you are unsure what your opponent has you decide that you are going to call him down. What is the best play in this situation?

[Kangaroo]

I'd bet the turn, holding middle pairs means he's going to have to hit his draw if he's playing it so put him on the spot to call to see the river. If he's holding the wired pairs so be it. not only this but you've got the ace kicker which may hit on the river.Ok now this may be getting ahead of myself a little bit but what do you think of this Daniel. To get a little more information about what the opponents holding I might throw out a weak lead from here try to accomplish1) If he has complete rubbish or even a bottom pair acheive a basic call or fold2) if he comes in with a big bet go back and think of his betting pattern to try to work out if he's hit his draw or he's jsut trying to buy the pot.what do you think .P.S Just read DN's article about the "weak lead" a few weeks back .

[BigDMcGee]

DanielNegreanu said:

Let's try some limit hold'em for a change, whaddya say?  In a nine handed ring game you pick up the A  8  in the cutoff seat and raise it up.  All fold to the big blind who defends his blind.  Some background on the big blind, he is also a professional player and will defend his blind liberally in this situation as he should.  The flop comes down Qc 8s 6h.  Your opponent check raises you on the flop and for this example you decide to call.  The turn card comes the 2c and your opponent bets out.    Some more background: You know that your opponent doesn't have to have a pair of queens or better to play his hand this way.  He could have a draw, a pair of eights, a pair of siixes, or even a hand like 99.  Since you are unsure what your opponent has you decide that you are going to call him down.  What is the best play in this situation?

This seems like a typical raise for the free show down sort of situtation. I would guess that if he had a pair of queens that he would have waited till the turn to raise, so I would put him on a six, a draw or a worse ace. If he reraises on the turn, I would re evaluate, and proably fold. The raise can get out a better hand like 99. If you get called and improve on the river, you can get an extra bet that you couldn't have gotten if you'd have just called down. If he has a draw, you made him pay for it... If I had a really good read on him, and on his reaction to my raise, I may value bet on the river, but proably just " checks are good" If was on a draw, and hit, there's a good chance he'd try for the check raise, since you raised the turn, and the checks are good would thrwart this. Call down, and call turn fold river are the worst options. You can't live in fear of top pair in short handed situations against aggressive opponents. If your opponent was a rock, or a tight player, it would be one thing. But what the hell does a flop raise mean from an agressive player? Anything. Mostly, it means that he doesn't think your button raising hand hit that flop... I check raise all the time into pre flop raisers whom i don't think hit the flop, in order to try to take the pot away from them on fourth. This could be precisly what he's doing.

[AllenRay4]

raise his turn bet. if you're going to call a turn and a river bet, why not raise here for the same price (assuming your turn raise scares him into a check on the river which is what you want unless you improve)if he re-raises, time to fold

[Canada]

Kangaroo said:

... Ok now this may be getting ahead of myself a little bit but what do you think of this Daniel. To get a little more information about what the opponents holding I might throw out a weak lead from here try to accomplish1) If he has complete rubbish or even a bottom pair acheive a basic call or fold2) if he comes in with a big bet go back and think of his betting pattern to try to work out if he's hit his draw or he's jsut trying to buy the pot.what do you think .P.S Just read DN's article about the "weak lead" a few weeks back .

Psssst.

DanielNegreanu said:

Let's try some limit hold'em for a change, whaddya say?

Psssst #2 - the BB is leading out :shock: ======================================Pssssting aside - I agree with BigDMcGee (had to say that as it's such a nice rhyme!)Go for the free show down. Raise the turn, check the river UI

[checkymcfold]

raise the turn and check the river if you don't improve. easy play.raising the turn makes the other guy (who is apparently better than anyone i ever play against online :-) ) go back on the defensive. simple as that. if he's got a hand like 99, he's not going to bet the river after you raise the turn like that, if he even calls here. if he's got a draw, he'll give you a call here but probably check the river whether he hits or not. in either case, you've induced a river check. but why check the river? because you only get called or raised by hands that beat you, except maybe an 8, which isn't very likely here by my read (i like 99-ish or a draw). if the draw missed, he ain't calling. if it hit, he's raising. 99 probably calls a bet but doesn't make a bet. again, the only way a bet works on the river is if he's holding an 8, which i don't like as a read here.seems pretty simple to me.

[Rocketwadster]

I screwed up when I voted (I thought it was a trick question with the "call him down" part), but after re-reading the posting by Daniel, I think the best way to "call him down" is to raise the turn, as it will cost you the same as if you called the turn and called the river, but give you the added bonus of possibly winning the pot on the turn or giving you the free card on the river (providing he doesn't re-raise back at ya). :wink:

[Swift_Psycho]

Raise the turn, fold to a 3-bet. Check the river if unimproved (as the poll indicates).

[Random Fluke]

I thought about raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet, but I don't like it. He will fold here if he is behind and call or reraise if he is ahead. Why make a worse hand fold? Instead I call the turn, and call the river. If he checks the river I bet. There really isn't much he can be drawing to here, except an inside straight. I think it is most likely that I am ahead, by reraising the turn he folds a weaker hand, but just calling I pay the same amount when I'm behind, and when I'm ahead I get one more bet out of him.

[....Ian....]

i'm mediocre at best in limit...but apparently my vote is with the majority (but last quiz that majoiry guy was wrong-o)

[Canada]

Random Fluke said:

I thought about raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet, but I don't like it. He will fold here if he is behind and call or reraise if he is ahead.  

Actually you need to look at it in broader terms, its not the black and white situations that you are attempting to control, but the 'grayer' ones:Black and whiteIf he is way ahead he will raise so raise/check vs call/call is the same as you fold to his raise.If he is way behind he will fold to a raise and you won't get a bet out of him on the river if you check the turn so r/ck is the same as c/cGrayIf he is behind with a gutshot or bottom pair etc... he will fold to a raise but if you check you won't get another bet out of him unless he hits so 1 time in 11 for the gutshot or 1 time in 8 for bottom pair r/ck is better than c/cIf he has a very weak queen or say a 99 letting him stay into river costs you the pot unless you improve, whereas raising may get him to fold. In this case r/ck is way better than c/c. He only has to fold 1 time in seven with these holdings for this to be +EV

Random Fluke said:

Why make a worse hand fold? Instead I call the turn, and call the river. If he checks the river I bet.

He won't call the river with a worse hand than middle pair - remember he is a pro, not some party poker fish.

Random Fluke said:

There really isn't much he can be drawing to here, except an inside straight.

75 & 79 give him a OESDAny hand with two of 9, T, J, K has at least 6 outs in fact T9, JTand J9 all have 10 clean outs - better than a flush drawraising here is your last chance to get value for your pair.

Random Fluke said:

I think it is most likely that I am ahead, by reraising the turn he folds a weaker hand, but just calling I pay the same amount when I'm behind, and when I'm ahead I get one more bet out of him.

There is no extra bet to be gained here

[Cole333]

I am sure plenty of people have posted an answer similar to this, but here is my take on it.The BB is a player capable of playing into you with any pair or no pair. It seems likely that if he had a legitimate check raising hand he would have hit you on the turn and not the flop. This screams weak to me. I would raise his turn and bet the river. If he reraises me on the turn then I call him down unless I improve and can raise him on the river. Best Regards,Cole

[akishore]

easy as cake! raise the turn for fold equity, if it gets three-bet, muck instantly. otherwise, check-call the river.if your opponent calls and checks the river, you check through, and this costs the same as calling twice, but you have a chance at making him fold on the turn AND getting in an extra bet if you improve on the river.aseem

[Kestral123]

For reasons already stated by others: Raise the turn and check the river if you don't improve. Fold to a reraise on turn.

[Kestral123]

For reasons already stated by others: Raise the turn and check the river if you don't improve. Fold to a reraise on turn.

[Kestral123]

For reasons already stated by others: Raise the turn and check the river if you don't improve. Fold to a reraise on turn.

[Razor]

I lay it down. Just thinking back over the hand, your raise pre-flop was called, regardless of whether it was called by the big-blind or not, then on the flop you hit middle pair with A kicker (and runner-runner flush draw) and get check-raised , the turn comes and kills your flush draw, meanwhile your opponent bets in to you with a club draw now on board. He could have a ton of hands that have you beat, a Queen, any pocket pair higher than 8's, 2 clubs, 2 pair, trips. Lay it down ... save your last bet for your next big blind and move on!

[princeof56k]

I would just call it down.A lot of people have said raise the turn, but I disagree. I would only raise if I thought there was a good chance I had the best hand or my opponent would fold a better hand. Given by the range of hands that have us beat, I'm not confident we have the best hand here. I also dont think our opponent would fold here unless he has absolutely nothing (not even a draw). If he's on a draw, he probably calls the turn bet, and if he misses he checks/folds on the river (in which case you had him beat anyways). I also dont think we are gaining any fold equity on the river either. If he has anything better than a pair of 8's, I cant see him folding on the river (he might call on the river just to see what we are holding).If we wanted to gain fold equity, the time to do so was by re-raising the flop. Weakness was shown on our part by just calling the raise. When the 2 hits on the turn, what are we trying to represent by raising? We raised pre-flop and then bet/called the flop. Looking from our opponents perspective, I cant see how the 2 helps us. A turn raise might just confuse him, and his response would probably be to just call it down out of curiosity.EDIT: I misread the flop play the first time. I corrected it.

[checkymcfold]

Razor said:

I lay it down. Just thinking back over the hand, your raise pre-flop was called, regardless of whether it was called by the big-blind or not, then on the flop you hit middle pair with A kicker (and runner-runner flush draw) and get check-raised , the turn comes and kills your flush draw, meanwhile your opponent bets in to you with a club draw now on board. He could have a ton of hands that have you beat, a Queen, any pocket pair higher than 8's, 2 clubs, 2 pair, trips. Lay it down ... save your last bet for your next big blind and move on!

if this guy's really a good player, a queen isn't a good read on him for the reasons everyone already noted (starting with daniel). the only real hand you're afraid of is 99, tt, etc, and i'd say that's less likely than a draw. raising the turn and betting the river is without a doubt the right play, since even 99 or tt can't reraise you or bet the river in this situation, and the draw probably checks the river to induce another bet from you. worse hands probably don't call a river bet anyhow, because he'll know that if you bet there you have him beat. the important thing here is that the guy's a good player. against a maniac fish i'd bet the river as well.i think that the strategy you've posted would indicate a tightness that i would utilize to eat you alive over the course of a long session.

[princeof56k]

I dont see why the guy couldnt have a Queen. A check raise might be a good play if he has Q with a weak kicker. He might be using the check/raise to see if we had a Q. By just calling, we are indicating we dont have the Q. Of course he might do the same play for same reasons with a pocket pair.