18 replies to this topic

[Money022]

Fairly straight forward opponents here between the caller and raiser. I haven't seen the 3-bettor play many hands. How do we feel about calling here OOP?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($95)
MP2 ($224)
CO ($194)
Button ($194.15)
SB ($398.25)
BB ($33.60)
UTG ($224.35)
Hero ($236.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, Q.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, CO calls $8, Button raises to $34, 2 folds, Hero ?

$26 more to call and the villian has about $160ish left. Call, fold, shovel?

[Snamuh]

I prefer having information on my opponents (obviously) if I were to call. Vs most I'd 4bet small (to 72) and call a shove. Vs others I'd call and CRAI any non A or K flop. I prefer 4betting though. This is a squeeze very often.

[Temporary Nuts]

shovel

[mtdesmoines]

Fairly straight forward opponents here between the caller and raiser. I haven't seen the 3-bettor play many hands. How do we feel about calling here OOP?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($95)
MP2 ($224)
CO ($194)
Button ($194.15)
SB ($398.25)
BB ($33.60)
UTG ($224.35)
Hero ($236.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, Q.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, CO calls $8, Button raises to $34, 2 folds, Hero ?

$26 more to call and the villian has about $160ish left. Call, fold, shovel?

Unless this table is totally geeked, I'm OK with a call and eval flop.

[Money022]

I prefer having information on my opponents (obviously) if I were to call. Vs most I'd 4bet small (to 72) and call a shove. Vs others I'd call and CRAI any non A or K flop. I prefer 4betting though. This is a squeeze very often.

I would like to know a little more behind your line of thinking Snamuh. Why 4-bet small instead of a larger amount if your plan is to call a shove? It seems to me if you're 4-betting on the small side it's with the intention of folding to a push.

That's interesting that you would think of the squeeze play here from the 3-bettor considering I raised from early position. So let's say it is a squeeze play, going back to 4-bet sizes, why 4-bet a small amount and give him a chance to see a flop. Even if it is a squeeze play they have to be doing it with a medium strength hand which may include one over to my queens. I know, that's only 3 immediate outs. The other issue with trying to pick off a squeeze play is that I'm out of position. Any ideas to combat that problem? That's all of my questions for now.

[krup24]

I would like to know a little more behind your line of thinking Snamuh. Why 4-bet small instead of a larger amount if your plan is to call a shove? It seems to me if you're 4-betting on the small side it's with the intention of folding to a push.

That's interesting that you would think of the squeeze play here from the 3-bettor considering I raised from early position. So let's say it is a squeeze play, going back to 4-bet sizes, why 4-bet a small amount and give him a chance to see a flop. Even if it is a squeeze play they have to be doing it with a medium strength hand which may include one over to my queens. I know, that's only 3 immediate outs. The other issue with trying to pick off a squeeze play is that I'm out of position. Any ideas to combat that problem? That's all of my questions for now.

ur pretty much spot on imo. i hate the 3 bet to 72. i think my play is to shove although a 4-bet to $100 is about the same.

[Snamuh]

I would like to know a little more behind your line of thinking Snamuh. Why 4-bet small instead of a larger amount if your plan is to call a shove? It seems to me if you're 4-betting on the small side it's with the intention of folding to a push.

That's interesting that you would think of the squeeze play here from the 3-bettor considering I raised from early position. So let's say it is a squeeze play, going back to 4-bet sizes, why 4-bet a small amount and give him a chance to see a flop. Even if it is a squeeze play they have to be doing it with a medium strength hand which may include one over to my queens. I know, that's only 3 immediate outs. The other issue with trying to pick off a squeeze play is that I'm out of position. Any ideas to combat that problem? That's all of my questions for now.

ur pretty much spot on imo. i hate the 3 bet to 72. i think my play is to shove although a 4-bet to $100 is about the same.

No, definitely not to both. You 4bet small to induce a light shove. You are NEVER folding to a shove. 4bet/folding your good hands is just awful (it's turning your hand into a bluff). I'd actually be more afraid of his 4bet calling range than his 5bet shoving range. A good player is pretty much gonna show up with AA/KK if he's calling your 4bet. You also need to make the 4bet smaller to induce bluff shoves, make your 4bet bluffs cheaper, and to give your opponent some perceived fold equity. Shoving is better than a 4bet to 100.

[krup24]

No, definitely not to both. You 4bet small to induce a light shove. You are NEVER folding to a shove. 4bet/folding your good hands is just awful (it's turning your hand into a bluff). I'd actually be more afraid of his 4bet calling range than his 5bet shoving range. A good player is pretty much gonna show up with AA/KK if he's calling your 4bet. You also need to make the 4bet smaller to induce bluff shoves, make your 4bet bluffs cheaper, and to give your opponent some perceived fold equity. Shoving is better than a 4bet to 100.

so ur thinking AK, AQ, AJs ANY PP are folding to this four bet? I hate it cause ur basically min raising giving any pp a chance to set mine for stacks. if the pp set mines and an A or K hits then this can get away from us.

[mln_falcon]

so ur thinking AK, AQ, AJs ANY PP are folding to this four bet? I hate it cause ur basically min raising giving any pp a chance to set mine for stacks. if the pp set mines and an A or K hits then this can get away from us.

Any 4 bet is going to make in unprofitable to set mine given stack sizes. If someone 4 bets me and I have AK im shoving 90% of the time and folding 10%. about 50/50 for AQ (this could be a leak , i think I'm supposed to shove AQ more).

If someone calls with something other that AA or KK good luck to them, but htey're making a mistake. You are very happy to call a shove after you've 4 bet.


Now all that being said you can fold ts the three bet as it's full ring, and full ring is full of nits. But never ever 4 bet fold. a 4 bet to 70 or 80 is optimal here as well, and if for some reason he just calls, I'll be shoving most flops.

[Snamuh]

so ur thinking AK, AQ, AJs ANY PP are folding to this four bet? I hate it cause ur basically min raising giving any pp a chance to set mine for stacks. if the pp set mines and an A or K hits then this can get away from us.

Dude no one is ever going to have anything even close to mathematical set mining odds. Realistically at higher levels, you need at least 20:1 to set mine, and most of the time, that's not even going to be realistic vs a good opponent. There is a ton of value in 4betting small and inducing spaz shoves. And LOL, you WANT AK/AQ/AJ to call your 4bet. It's a really big mistake if they are calling 4bets with those hands.

Here is a perfect example from my session today illustrating the amazingness of the small 4bet. I guarantee that a majority of high stakes and mid stakes NL players are going to be agreeing with me on this one.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2938916

People do stupid things, especially when you 4bet them small. They spaz out, even good regulars.

[Syous]

same session, same guy, no real history except that I tilted him a little.

I hear 2/4 plays way differently from 1/2 but I think this is a pretty good example regardless

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2938958

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2938959

[mtdesmoines]

<-- respecting a lot of Snamuh's posts

Dude no one is ever going to have anything even close to mathematical set mining odds. Realistically at higher levels, you need at least 20:1 to set mine, and most of the time, that's not even going to be realistic vs a good opponent. There is a ton of value in 4betting small and inducing spaz shoves. And LOL, you WANT AK/AQ/AJ to call your 4bet. It's a really big mistake if they are calling 4bets with those hands.

Here is a perfect example from my session today illustrating the amazingness of the small 4bet. I guarantee that a majority of high stakes and mid stakes NL players are going to be agreeing with me on this one.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2938916

People do stupid things, especially when you 4bet them small. They spaz out, even good regulars.

[krup24]

Dude no one is ever going to have anything even close to mathematical set mining odds. Realistically at higher levels, you need at least 20:1 to set mine, and most of the time, that's not even going to be realistic vs a good opponent. There is a ton of value in 4betting small and inducing spaz shoves. And LOL, you WANT AK/AQ/AJ to call your 4bet. It's a really big mistake if they are calling 4bets with those hands.

Here is a perfect example from my session today illustrating the amazingness of the small 4bet. I guarantee that a majority of high stakes and mid stakes NL players are going to be agreeing with me on this one.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2938916

People do stupid things, especially when you 4bet them small. They spaz out, even good regulars.

20:1 sounds ridiculous but whatever. and to me that 4 bet small screams big hand but i don't play that high.

what do you do if you are smooth called and an A or K hits the flop?

[simo_8ball]

20:1 sounds ridiculous but whatever.

It's a decent estimate. It's hard to say exactly.

You need 11.7:1 just to break even if your opponent has AA and open shoves every single flop (you have perfect implied odds).

If you have 55, think about how often your opponent will have KK and it comes A high, QQ and an A/K flops, JJ and an A/K/Q flops, etc. Also, if your opponent has AK/AQ he will only flop a pair 25% of the time. Then think about if it comes 567hhh and he has JcJs.

Oh, and AA will beat 55 by the river almost 20% of the time that a 5 flops, so your equity is likely to be something like 75% overall against a range that will stack off against you (flush draws, oversets, overpairs, TPTK, etc).

[mtdesmoines]

It's a decent estimate. It's hard to say exactly.

You need 11.7:1 just to break even if your opponent has AA and open shoves every single flop (you have perfect implied odds).

If you have 55, think about how often your opponent will have KK and it comes A high, QQ and an A/K flops, JJ and an A/K/Q flops, etc. Also, if your opponent has AK/AQ he will only flop a pair 25% of the time. Then think about if it comes 567hhh and he has JcJs.

Oh, and AA will beat 55 by the river almost 20% of the time that a 5 flops, so your equity is likely to be something like 75% overall against a range that will stack off against you (flush draws, oversets, overpairs, TPTK, etc).

set mining isn't as rich as it sounds

[rdtedm]

It's a decent estimate. It's hard to say exactly.

You need 11.7:1 just to break even if your opponent has AA and open shoves every single flop (you have perfect implied odds).

If you have 55, think about how often your opponent will have KK and it comes A high, QQ and an A/K flops, JJ and an A/K/Q flops, etc. Also, if your opponent has AK/AQ he will only flop a pair 25% of the time. Then think about if it comes 567hhh and he has JcJs.

Oh, and AA will beat 55 by the river almost 20% of the time that a 5 flops, so your equity is likely to be something like 75% overall against a range that will stack off against you (flush draws, oversets, overpairs, TPTK, etc).

I don't want to play pocket pairs anymore

[simo_8ball]

It's not quite as simple as the old "1 time in 9 I flop a set, so I can call up to 10% of my stack to hit".

If you have position you can win against AK/AQ some of the time. You can maybe bluff JJ-KK on an A high flop sometimes. You have some more value simply because of your position. The problem is, the more often you can win unimproved the lower your implied odds are for hitting a set.

[Naismith]

I would like to know a little more behind your line of thinking Snamuh. Why 4-bet small instead of a larger amount if your plan is to call a shove? It seems to me if you're 4-betting on the small side it's with the intention of folding to a push.

Not sure if Snamuh responded to this yet as I haven't read the rest of the thread.

The reason for the light 4-bet is because you're giving the illusion of fold equity to hands that are worse than ours. If we pot-commit ourselves with a 4-bet, he can really only shove with a range that's too tight to maximize profit. The reality is that a 4-bet is our declaration that we're getting it all in.

Also, the lighter 4-bet with QQ allows you to 4-bet bluff in the future without committing a huge amount.

[Syous]

I would like to know a little more behind your line of thinking Snamuh. Why 4-bet small instead of a larger amount if your plan is to call a shove? It seems to me if you're 4-betting on the small side it's with the intention of folding to a push.

think about what you just said. A lot of the time we confuse our logic when playing this game.