d0c 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Villain is 12 tabling regular with stats 13/11/7.7 over 250 hands. Villain opening range from UTG and BTN doesn't differ much: (PF raises: EP/LP/BLINDS 14/16/11).PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Button ($20.40)Hero ($9.90)BB ($9.40)UTG ($13.65)MP ($15.20)CO ($10.75)Preflop: Hero is SB with A , Q . UTG raises to $0.4, 3 folds, Hero folds and moves on?3betting nor calling OOP doesn't seem like a good idea. Is this std fold? Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 2 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 No. Generally, if the game is that bad, we need to leave the table or start stealing. But I don't fold AQ to anyone's 4BB PF bet. Sometimes I see nits start to go crazy in an action-free game.Could be JJ TT AQ AJ 99 ... even 77 88 78 sooted, whatever.So I'm not ready to fold AQ to a 4bb PF bet just because the game has been tight.I don't think calling is bad here, I really don't.I think we'll be better able to define where we are by betting almost any flop. I think we need to be very aware of getting value and not giving it though. I'm not going crazy with this hand, I'm just not folding it. Link to post Share on other sites
Moneyball16 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I probably fold.I tried to make a range for him. 13.1% which seems about right based on your stats from him.22+,A8s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo 49.367%AQo 50.363%Even though we have a small equity edge I think being oop makes this a fold since it doesn't play great postflop out of position. Link to post Share on other sites
d0c 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Agreed (with MT), folding is too weak. Now the rest of the hand for a line check. Is it too weak/tight?Button ($20.40)Hero ($9.90)BB ($9.40)UTG ($13.65)MP ($15.20)CO ($10.75)Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q. UTG raises to $0.4, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold.Flop: ($0.90) A, 5, 3(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75.Villain cbets 75% flops. I think he folds all underpairs when I donkbet but cbets with his entire range. c/r seems like turning decent hand into bluff.Turn: ($2.40) K(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $2, Hero calls $2.Turn actually gives me opportunity to turn my hand into bluff, but it would be more credible if I had donked (or c/r) on flop (and even then I'm not sure I can get him off top two). Probably should have b/f or c/f the turn.River: ($6.40) 2(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $4.2, Hero folds.Villain river aggression is 0.5 (bets 20% of rivers), so this must be valuebet. Weakest hand for him to valuebet is AQ - so I'm splitting or I'm behind. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 2 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Flop: ($0.90) A, 5, 3(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75.Villain cbets 75% flops. I think he folds all underpairs when I donkbet but cbets with his entire range. c/r seems like turning decent hand into bluff.Turn: ($2.40) K(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $2, Hero calls $2.Turn actually gives me opportunity to turn my hand into bluff, but it would be more credible if I had donked (or c/r) on flop (and even then I'm not sure I can get him off top two). Probably should have b/f or c/f the turn.River: ($6.40) 2(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $4.2, Hero folds.Villain river aggression is 0.5 (bets 20% of rivers), so this must be valuebet. Weakest hand for him to valuebet is AQ - so I'm splitting or I'm behind. Gah, don't check that flop. I don't care how much he cbets, I donk into him. Pot the flop and see what he does -- he'll tell you his story right there on the cheapest street where we have the most information. Anyway, his betting flop and turn indicates he has an ace or he doesn't believe we do. In any case, I think calling down the river is fine. He may have gone nuts with a suited AT AJ whatever. If he has AK+, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites
jmbreslin 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 It seems really silly to call down the flop and turn and then fold to a brick on the river. You either have to take control of the hand prior to the river, or call his river bet. I agree with mt that the flop was probably the best spot to make a move. I'm torn between check-raising or donkbetting, but since I tend to lean towards more straightforward and cheaper moves I'd probably just lead into him on the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
d0c 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 I think we'll be better able to define where we are by betting almost any flop.Probably the biggest mistake of the hand - not donkbetting. I use donkbetting alot, this time i chose immediate value over making it easier to play on later streets. I'd hate c/r without a lot of history because it folds out every hand that I beat (except maybe FD). Link to post Share on other sites
pokerinc 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If you donked a were raised would you be folding?I like check calling the flop and donking the turn. If you donked that flop into my utg raise, you'd be facing a strong raise from me no matter what, but if you donk the turn there's more you can rep and it's trickier for me to decide how to continue. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 2 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Villain is 12 tabling regular with stats 13/11/7.7 over 250 hands. Villain opening range from UTG and BTN doesn't differ much: (PF raises: EP/LP/BLINDS 14/16/11). If you donked a were raised would you be folding? I like check calling the flop and donking the turn. If you donked that flop into my utg raise, you'd be facing a strong raise from me no matter what, but if you donk the turn there's more you can rep and it's trickier for me to decide how to continue.Well, that's what YOU would do. You're a diff player than the villain. So I'm going to discount the question some. Would I fold? Depends on the amount of the raise, how much of a stack calling leaves me to play out the hand, what my heart was telling me about the hand ... etc. etc. I see your point about c-calling and donking the turn; however, I don't know if this is the best way to handle this villain in this situation. I reviewed the OP for information and it bugs me that he is 12 tabling. What is this game again? $10 NL. 12 tabling $10 NL and those stats. Meh ... a 12 tabling regular with those stats is going to have a fairly narrow range I think. If he wasn't 12 tabling, I'd say he could be trying to juice a nitty table. But he's not going to care much about a table that's sucking wind, he's going to just sit and do what his standard operating practices tell him to do. Overall, this is an ugly spot. I can see AT AJ even some A-sooted. AK/AA/KK is a lot of stuff going right for him in this hand ... in the end, I guess I call just to see what's going on. Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Both raising and folding pf have their benefits. Raising gives you a chance to take down the pot now and not have to play a tricky hand out of position but it will also get him to fold all the dominated Aces and Queens he has in his range and continue with only his stronger hands. I probably 3 bet just cause I hate playing oop.. River: ($6.40) 2(2 players)Hero checks, UTG bets $4.2, Hero folds.Villain river aggression is 0.5 (bets 20% of rivers), so this must be valuebet. Weakest hand for him to valuebet is AQ - so I'm splitting or I'm behind. You don't think the villain value bets AJ or ATs on the river?You need ~28% equity in this pot to break even on a river call.Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com 32 evaluations, 32 hole card combosBoard: As 5c 3c Kc 2sWins Ties Equity59.38% 7.81% 67.19% ( AA, KK. 55, 33, AK, AQ, AJ, ATs ) 25.00% 7.81% 32.81% ( AhQd ) I guess you really have to decide how many of the Aces in his range he is value betting on the river. Link to post Share on other sites
TravisG 0 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 dont call the turn if you'll fold the river to a decent sized bet anyways. Link to post Share on other sites
d0c 0 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 dont call the turn if you'll fold the river to a decent sized bet anywaysYeah, agreed. What about blocking the river for 3$ (and folding to shove)? It should get value from AT/AJ. Link to post Share on other sites
d0c 0 Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 but if you donk the turn there's more you can rep and it's trickier for me to decide how to continue.Donking turn is never for value but only as bluff. I don't see many hands that I can rep: * sets - would have donked or c/r the flop * flush - could be but I'd discount the probability because FD would have again donked or c/r * AK - yes, but + it would have 3betted PF some % of time + it only gets villain off AQ, so only half value in bluffMost likely holding for me after donking the turn would be A and villain can continue with everything that has me beat meaning bluff doesn't work here.Bluffing in NL10 is pretty spewy anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites
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