18 replies to this topic

[JdhMac]

Obviously there are two sides to this debate. Some see slow playing as a strategic move, while others simply dismiss it with the advice of playing aggressively if you have the hand. I was recently made a fool when in an MTT, the player sitting to my right REALLY slow played his hand. He had pocket Aces and the flop was ragged and a rainbow... something like 6-4-9. I had Ace-Nine so I bet semi-aggressively whenever said opponent ALWAYS checked it over to me. A 2 fell with the Turn and again he checks and I bet a decent amount. Then comes the ever surprising River card... fittingly an the last Ace fell. He again checks if over to me and obviously I make a larger bet this time around having top two pair. He then re-raises. I had this guy figured for some egotistical, "you can't bully me", kind of player so I assumed he was simple trying to throw something back at me to scare me away. Wasn't I wrong... My question isn't really how well or badly I played this hand, since all I could give you was a brief summary, etc. It's more as to where you stand and how you feel about slow playing?. Especially a monster such as his pocket Aces?...

[RabidTortuga]

Check behind on the turn. You have a top pair top kicker hand that you would like to win a small pot with. Also, respect river check-raises. It's just silly to think someone would bluff that way unless you've seen them do it before.It's all about the specific hand. Your opponent was correct to slowplay a big hand if he knew you were an overagressive donk who would go broke with a marginal hand. So, as to whether or not to slowplay, well, it depends.

[Tration101]

Like the previous poster said... It really all depends. He knew you were going to keep firing with a marginal hand, and with an overpair to the board, it was right for him to let you do all the betting. Not only did you have no idea what he had, but also thought you were ahead the whole time. So it depends on who your up agianst. If you were a call-station instead of an over-aggressive donk, he would have probably bet into you on all streets. On the hand that you presented, i would advise you next time to maybe consider top pair isnt good after your turn bet is called, and even more so when re-raised on the river. Although you thought he might have been trying to get you off your hand, chances are any solid player is going to have a decent hand when they call it down and then raise.

[pokerinc]

watch for oreo tell next time.

[BigRob1107]

JdhMac, on Sunday, July 20th, 2008, 8:37 AM, said:

Obviously there are two sides to this debate. Some see slow playing as a strategic move, while others simply dismiss it with the advice of playing aggressively if you have the hand. I was recently made a fool when in an MTT, the player sitting to my right REALLY slow played his hand. He had pocket Aces and the flop was ragged and a rainbow... something like 6-4-9. I had Ace-Nine so I bet semi-aggressively whenever said opponent ALWAYS checked it over to me. A 2 fell with the Turn and again he checks and I bet a decent amount. Then comes the ever surprising River card... fittingly an the last Ace fell. He again checks if over to me and obviously I make a larger bet this time around having top two pair. He then re-raises. I had this guy figured for some egotistical, "you can't bully me", kind of player so I assumed he was simple trying to throw something back at me to scare me away. Wasn't I wrong... My question isn't really how well or badly I played this hand, since all I could give you was a brief summary, etc. It's more as to where you stand and how you feel about slow playing?. Especially a monster such as his pocket Aces?...

Slow playing must be done vs the right type of player vs your average general player I hate slowplaying. Even worse I hate the check raise when you flop the nuts. I only do it If I feel he will make a move or he is a habitual player who over plays hands. After a check call on the flop then a check just check behind the turn especially in a MTT preserving your stack is more important than getting full value for a pair of nines. In cash I think value betting is a little more important and to bet a pair of nines on the turn in a cash game I have to have a very good feel for where my opponents at. I was playing cash on stars earlier and turned a full house and the player I was in the pot with was a habitual oveplayer so I check called the turn and lead out on the river and he shoved into me with TT on the A J 7 J 8 board. So like I said it must be done vs the right player. Play the player.

[Snamuh]

There is a time and a place for everything in poker, slowplaying included. You need your opponents to know you are capable of playing big hands slow or they can try to put a lot of pressure on your marginal hands on later streets. The more weapons you have in your poker arsenal, the more dangerous of a player you are.

[Merby]

pokerinc, on Sunday, July 20th, 2008, 7:38 PM, said:

watch for oreo tell next time.

I'm a sucker for that tell. I think I've lost close to $2,000 last month alone, just because I insist on bringing a box of oreo cookies to the casino every time I play poker.

[copernicus]

On balance the situations where slow playing will earn you more than fast playing are rare (especially pre-flop, because of the slow play requirement that villains should have a high probability of improvement, but low probability of improving to better than your hand), but it is required occasionally for the meta-game impact as snamuh noted.

[JdhMac]

I KNEW I wasn't the only one falling for the Oreos!.

[copernicus]

The one I always look for is when a blonde stops peeling her M&Ms and just eats them with the shell on.

[falsepretense]

For a slowplay to be correct there is 5 criteria that have to be met. 1 Your hand must be very strong.2 You will probably chase everyone out by betting, but have a good chance of winning a large pot if you check.3 The free card that you are giving has good possibilities of making second best hands.4 The free card you are giving has little chance of making a better hand, or even little chance to give someone a draw to a better hand with the correct odds to call.5 The pot must not yet be very large.

[whatgreatis]

I'm going to number this so my thoughts don't get all cluttered.1. Slow playing should almost never be your default. With NO reads you should almost always be betting.2. Slow playing has its place but it's occasions are much rarer compared to just betting your hand.3. Slow playing works best with a loose aggressive blufftard in the hand. As Snamuh said, know your opponents and their tendencies.4. River check/raises are almost NEVER bluffs. They are almost ALWAYS the top 10% of villains range. The only exception is when you move up in limits (5/10+) and people can balance all of their ranges well.5. Get your Oreo fix away from the table.6. ?????7. Profit.Edit: One more little thing about river check/raises. They are great as a bluff against opponents who value bet thinly.

[wakiki]

The texture of the flop is very important when deciding whether to slowplay. In your example with a rainbow flop and only marginal straight draws, it was smart. If there are draws present though, I never slowplay.Of course, at higher poker levels, slowplaying a dangerous flop will make your slowplaying all the more deceptive. "They wouldn't have slowplayed there; there's straight and flush draws available." I don't play at a level where people would notice that though, heh.The most money I ever made in a pot was in my third poker game, in a casino. $1/2 blinds, I hold AQ. I raised it to $8, and get like 6 other callers. That was a little unusual. The flop came Q-Q-6, and everyone checked. I could tell by the vibes at the table that no one hit anything, and that I probably wouldn't make much money by betting at it, so I checked along with them, hoping someone would hit something. A King came on the turn. Here I decided to bet $20, and was check-raised all-in. The guy probably thought I was trying to steal the pot. I called fairly quickly and made around $150 in that hand (didn't get to see his cards, but I bet he had something like AK or KJ).

[00timh]

Just as others have stated, slow playing has its places. Overall though, I think you end up losing value out of real strong hands. They either have something or they don't. If they called your PF raise, then they may have a playable hand that they want to at least see the turn with so most of the time betting is just sensible play here. Perhaps if you hit something like a FH on the flop, bet something like a 2/3rds type bet and get called, a turn check might get someone to put some more money into the pot that they may otherwise not. It really depends on your opponent and what is on the board in this case.

[three eight offsuit]

strongly against it unless you have a properhand ie best possible with no possible overdrawI would never slow play pocket aces or any pocket pair because pocket pairs never guarantee you a win eg dealt pocket aces (spade club) in late position limp in all rest of table has folded to bb who checks with Ad3dflop comes Jd5d7d all of a sudden your opponent has hit a fush with top kicker and you've lost the hand all because you didn't bet his rag ace out pre flop

[antistuff]

i will go against the grain and say that many people do not think about wither there is value in their bet or not. so while not necessarily slowplaying, i see lots of people bet hands in places where the only way you are going to get money is to check/call. so i guess it depends on your definition of slowplaying, but i would argue that many of you probably are not "slowplaying" enough. when you have a big hand you do whatever you can to get that pot as big as possible, but more often than seems commonly touted if you really took a second to read hands and the situation you would see that your opponent doesn't have anything and you are going to need to trick them into tossing some more chips into the pot.

[trystero]

antistuff, on Thursday, August 28th, 2008, 5:33 PM, said:

i will go against the grain and say that many people do not think about wither there is value in their bet or not. so while not necessarily slowplaying, i see lots of people bet hands in places where the only way you are going to get money is to check/call. so i guess it depends on your definition of slowplaying, but i would argue that many of you probably are not "slowplaying" enough.

Great point here. Most of the time this is due to check/calling in spots where draws comprise a heavy portion of villain's range, and your only way of extracting value is to induce bluffs. But lately I've been thinking of how to trap predictably aggressive players. Consider this .10/.25 6-max homegame I played a few weeks ago. I was in the BB with KQo, and a strong, aggressive player OTB opened to $1. So I called and we took a flop of KT5r. I checked as did he. Odd - maybe I've got an obvious tell. Turn brought a 7, and in this spot I'd say that most players, including me, would lead because we could be interpreted as preying on weakness. And we need to get value for our king while we're probably ahead. But I figured this player would bet for me, as most aggro players do when checked to twice, and then I could get a bet in on the turn and represent a weaker hand as well. And predictably he potted the turn and I called. River came a K and I checked. He then bet 1/2 the pot, and I raised. At this point he was completely puzzled. If I had a king why hadn't I bet at some point in this hand? Finally he concluded that my line made no sense, so he called with AT. Afterward he didn't call me a donk, per se, but said I played "interesting poker." Another way to do it was to bet/call on the turn, as he's capable of raising, but I don't really feel comfortable doing that OOP.Point is, anyway, that you should know why you're doing what you are, and that you should know what your bet seeks to accomplish. Had I bet the turn he would've called and probably folded the river. I would've represented a king nicely, which is exactly what I DIDN'T want to do.

[antistuff]

trystero, on Thursday, August 28th, 2008, 10:33 PM, said:

Great point here. Most of the time this is due to check/calling in spots where draws comprise a heavy portion of villain's range, and your only way of extracting value is to induce bluffs. But lately I've been thinking of how to trap predictably aggressive players. Consider this .10/.25 6-max homegame I played a few weeks ago. I was in the BB with KQo, and a strong, aggressive player OTB opened to $1. So I called and we took a flop of KT5r. I checked as did he. Odd - maybe I've got an obvious tell. Turn brought a 7, and in this spot I'd say that most players, including me, would lead because we could be interpreted as preying on weakness. And we need to get value for our king while we're probably ahead. But I figured this player would bet for me, as most aggro players do when checked to twice, and then I could get a bet in on the turn and represent a weaker hand as well. And predictably he potted the turn and I called. River came a K and I checked. He then bet 1/2 the pot, and I raised. At this point he was completely puzzled. If I had a king why hadn't I bet at some point in this hand? Finally he concluded that my line made no sense, so he called with AT. Afterward he didn't call me a donk, per se, but said I played "interesting poker." Another way to do it was to bet/call on the turn, as he's capable of raising, but I don't really feel comfortable doing that OOP.Point is, anyway, that you should know why you're doing what you are, and that you should know what your bet seeks to accomplish. Had I bet the turn he would've called and probably folded the river. I would've represented a king nicely, which is exactly what I DIDN'T want to do.

if he sucked bad enough where i thought raising the river was good i would have bet the whole way.

[Sheiky]

I like to play it slow then pop em' on the river!